Good, relatively low cost PCB layout SW?

Someone had recommended PC123; a bit large for POTS but doable. BUT. It is impossible to get useable documentation. After a longwinded download, Adobe Acrobat reader complains that it is damaged and cannot be fixed. The so-called 24 hour response took a week and the attached "copy" was as bad, and the second time was also bad. So scratch PCB123 at any price, because without documentation, it becomes useless when one needs immediate help and/or guidance.

** Eagle? The trial version loaded, but was completely non-functional. So why should i pay for something that i cannot try out? ** Ivex Winboard? Trial version worked to all expectations, liked the incremental pricing and have used it a lot. *Really* liked the library compiler/decompiler - used it a lot to create many new and necessary pad layouts. BUT. It is impossible to put surface mount parts on the back, so one has to "fudge" by using two "front side" layout files; PITA and then some (lemme see, shall i mirror the back side gerbers? Where do i put offset vias to make them work in real life? etc?). And the company is dead, so there is no possibility of improvements. ** IDEAL: 1) *one* part layout that can be used for either front or back; let the computer figure out what to do regarding pin numbers, and non-symmetry. 2) something as easy or easier than the WinBoard compiler/decompiler, only add a graphical editor: move this over here, widen this pad there, make an arbitrary external graphic (GIF?) into a pad/padset, etc. 3) be able to *group* and ungroup objects at will, copy and paste at will, move any object from one side to the other at will (in short, be as flexible as Corel Draw). 4) at least a trial version that can do all that the full version can do

- just limited in some reasonable manner (like Ivex did), say number of pins, number of days, library size, combinations of these. But full documentation *easily* available (not force one to use IE or some exotic reader like the USPTO does).

5) some kind of stepped pricing scheme where small useage has an affordable price for the little guy/ experimenter, mid pricing for those that need more useage, and reserve the bigg buck$$ for the bigg users. I suggest a stepping based on pins, like Ivex did; very reasonable approach.

Suggestions?

Yours is the 1st testament of out-of-the-box failure that I've heard. . ..

Is *free* cheap enough?

*-first-three-problems+have-*-been-addressed+Aug-*+zzz-zzz+It's-free-and-runs-on-both-Windows-and-Linux . ..

KiCAD is an Open Source offering originated by some French academics. The English docs followed quickly. The development team seems very responsive to user input.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Baer" Newsgroups: sci.electronics.cad Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 12:40 PM Subject: Good, relatively low cost PCB layout SW?

Hello Robert,

ten thousand people have downloaded EAGLE and have used it without problems. I just downloaded it a few minutes ago just to test it. It immediately worked. Now think about your conclusion.

Best regards, Helmut

I also endorse the Easy-PC product. Though I've been using it's big brother Pulsonix for several years I just had a look at the latest version of Easy-PC, version 9, and it's still be far the best budget priced product around.

Prescott

So, you're thinking that no one in the users group would be willing to burn a CD and mail it to you? Software chauvinism being what it is, I rather doubt that would be a problem.

See my notes and links to some 60 ECAD programs at

Terry Pinnell Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK

It is true that others have said they had no problems with Eagle. But if i cannot get it to work it is useless for me. And i have read about layout problems, difficulty inmaking new patterns, etc - all of which decreases my motivation to try again. Can you say (now, after some revisions since i last tried it about a year ago) that most of my (idealized) wishes would be reasonably satisfied with Eagle?

*-first-three-problems+have-*-been-addressed+Aug-*+zzz-zzz+It's-free-and-runs-on-both-Windows-and-Linux

I do not mind paying som reasonable amount for the prog. But at "104 megs zipped" it is totally impossible to obtain via POTS.

Can a trial version be downloaded via POTS in under 45 minutes? If not, can a trial version be bought on CD for under $10?

Thanks; will heck that out along with EasyPC.

So... are you offering, and if so, how much and name/address for check?

Number One Systems has this frame to put in a bunch of info (which i did) and a "submit" button. The screen gets refreshed and one sees the same frame with info as before. What gives?

Though I see they've dropped the lowest cost version, the one they used to sell for 98UKP. Maybe they've compensated by adding functionality to the demo version, which was a bit silly, as it couldn't save. You really need time to evaluate a PCB program, and having to start from scratch each session will put a lot of people off.

The demo download is about 6Mbytes, so about 35 minutes on a typical 56k modem.

Paul Burke

No it's not, it's 23Mbytes.

I checked with Number One; they tried it and said there wasn't a problem.

Leon

One significant feature that Pulsonix/EasyPC lack is the ability to automatically have nets connect by copying/pasting (or duplicating) a bunch of components and their associated nets "on top of " some other nets. I was really surprised to find this -- ORCAD, PCAD, and most other packages I've tried in the past 5 years all do this! It has been mentioned to me that allowing this behavior is potentially "risky," so I can see some checkbox for whether or not it should be allowed, but for someone used to working in this style of design entry it's a real producitivity killer.

Similarly, drawing a line past a bunch of pins (say all your power pins sticking out of the side of a larger symbol) doesn't connect the net to those pins -- something that can make what could be a "two click" operations a "twenty click" operation if you have 10 pins you wanted connected to the same net. (Although, in all fairness, just like other programs you can pre-assign a net to a bunch of pins and not show them on the schematic, but personally I've preferred to show all power pins ever since the likelihood that "diagonally opposite pins = +5V and Gnd" went the way of the dodo about a decade ago. Hiding lots of information like power pins numbers certainly makes the schematic look a little nicer, but for me this benefit is outweighed by the utility of being able to know, from a paper schematic, where one ought to find power -- and what the voltage should be -- during troubleshooting.)

In general, Pulsonix/EasyPC are well-written programs that are fast and 'clean,' -- they're still lacking some of the features that the big boys have, but I haven't regretted spending the money on Pulsonix yet.

---Joel

how so? I have dowloaded over half of Debian woody (8 CDroms so far) call it

5Gigs, over POTS. 104 megs will only take all night to download, something like "get right" will help with resuming aborted downloads if you're running windows (handy if your ISP has a time limit etc...)

Bye. Jasen

How about the badly named but (I think???) otherwise well done "Rimu PCB" and (if you please) "Rimu Schematic" from

?

Cordially, Richard Kanarek

NOT affiliated with Hutson Systems in any way.

They are sending me a CD, and at no charge; *excellent* support!!