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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?



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A 30kW peak output PV solar array would cost somewhere in the region of
$120,000 in panels alone by my estimation yet would only provide around
120kWh of electricity daily (worth around $12) on average. Factor in
financing costs and it simply will NEVER 'pay back'

Scale that down to a 12kWh EV battery pack daily recharge and it would still
cost you $12,000 PLUS and the associated installation, inverter etc, say
$20k overall. Yet it would only cost about $1.20 for that daily recharge
from the mains.

Graham


Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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Not if you live in an area where electricity cost versus monthly usage
has the I/V characteristic of a silicon diode. Out here when you reach
130% of baseline that would be the 600mV point. Go beyond that and
you'll hear a huge slurping sound. That sound would be coming from your
bank account. And that happens in a lot of other places, too.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com /

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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
snipped-for-privacy@removethispacbell.net says...
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That's ok, I just got a notice that National Grid is hiking electric
rates in RI again. It's bad enough that with the combined distribution
and generation charges we pay 14.5 cents per kWh. I don't know how much
more I can bear of this.

Deregulation, yeah it's only good for the company not for the people.


Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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Deregulation can be good if there is competition. Airline travel was
pretty much restricted to upper class folks before deregulation. But
deregulation while keeping monopolies in place is IMHO not a good thing.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com /

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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?



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Rhode Island or Republic of Ireland ?

Graham


Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com says...
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The State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations to be precise.

You wouldn't believe how upset the "Plantations" part makes certain
people.




Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?



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Sounds like you guys need to form your own co-operatives to supply your own
power.

Graham


Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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power.
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But from what? Usually water rights and all that have been divvied up
"appropriately" many moons ago.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com /

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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
On Sun, 18 May 2008 05:10:21 +0100, Eeyore

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I don't recall the exact total cost but I think it was about $150,000.
That did not include legal fees and time wasted dealing with PG&E
nonsense.

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No financing that I know of on this system.

Typical production is about 15kw-hr/day.  See graphs and visually
guess the average delivered power:
<http://www.solarwarrior.com/historical-data.html

Non-tracking vverage hours equivalent to full sunlight is about 4.5
hrs in Santa Cruz County.  That yields:
  15kw * 4.5 hrs/day = 68kw-hr/day

PG&E rates vary with usage and season.  The cost to charge the fleet
of electric vehicles would have placed them in nearly the highest
rates.  See:
<http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ResElecCurrent.xls
That's the current residential rates.  My guess is that electricity
would cost about $0.30/kw-hr at the highest rate.  
  68Kw-hr/day * $0.30/kw-hr = $20/day

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The owner indicates that the calculated break even point is 18 years
out of a 30 year lifetime.  The higher prices of electricity will make
the break even point somewhat sooner.  I don't have all the numbers
necessary to verify that.  I certainly won't buy into anything that
takes 18 years to break even as I don't expect to live that long.  I
agree that it's not very practical (unless you include government
subsidies and rebates), but it's a start.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558             snipped-for-privacy@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?

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A point. Those technically able to to do such an investment
regard living the 18 years as doubtfull. Those with a good
prospect of seeing these 18 years regard the investment
beyond their reach. Apparently none these days is willing
to do an investment for the future generation.

A pity.

Rene

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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Can't see the spreadsheet but IIRC it does cost that much. As people who
moved into this area have painfully found out. Real estate is less
expensive than the Bay Area but the rude awakening comes when the A/C is
used. Then PG&E begins to charge them through the nose. Same for people
with heat pumps in winter. Which is why we had a heat pump in Europe but
do not have one here.


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The reason why PV is popular in Europe is that goverments there provide
HUGE subsidies. They often get well north of 50c/kWh and the other
ratepayers foot the bill. There is no free lunch.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com /

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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
On Sun, 18 May 2008 17:12:42 -0700, Joerg

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Y'er news header shows that you're using Windoze.  You might want to
download the various Word, Excel, and Powerpoint viewers from
Microsloth.

Word 2003:
<http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid95%e24c87-8732-48d5-8689-ab826e7b8fdf&displaylang=en

Excel 2003:
<http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c8378bf4-996c-4569-b547-75edbd03aaf0&displaylang=en

PowerPointless 2007:
<http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid04%8DC840-14E1-467D-8DCA-19D2A8FD7485&displaylang=en

Visio 2003:
<http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=3fb3bd5c-fed1-46cf-bd53-da23635ab2df&DisplayLang=en

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"The world's largest solar power plant is only the latest addition to
Germany's investment in alternative power..."
<http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/05/28/100049624/index.htm

The way I understand it (from a rather marginal TV documentary) the
logic is that when the oil runs out, Germany will have electricity
while most other countries will not.  It's also part of creating jobs
and dealing with the unemployment problem.  German taxpayers
apparently paid about $3.8 billion last year to subsidize alternative
engergy sources.  Whatever it takes.

--
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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<http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid95%e24c87-8732-48d5-8689-ab826e7b8fdf&displaylang=en
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<http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c8378bf4-996c-4569-b547-75edbd03aaf0&displaylang=en
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<http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid04%8DC840-14E1-467D-8DCA-19D2A8FD7485&displaylang=en
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<http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=3fb3bd5c-fed1-46cf-bd53-da23635ab2df&DisplayLang=en
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<http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/05/28/100049624/index.htm
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I have Excel. "An unknown error occurred", the usual meaningful MS error
message :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com /

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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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The document is an incomprehensible tangle of special exceptions,
rules, ambiguous and incomplete, with footnotes.  IOW, exactly what
you'd expect from a publicly regulated, legislated anything.  Stay
tuned for public healthcare.

The upshot for most people is _energy_ charges (i.e., excluding
significant other charges) as follows:

Minimum charge of $0.15 per day,
$0.116 / kWh for usage up to "baseline",
$0.131 / kWh for usage up to 130% of "baseline",
$0.226 / kWh for usage up to 200% of "baseline",
increasing to $0.36 / kWh for users going over 300% of "baseline".

Estimated actual, average energy rate paid by a typical customer =
$0.167/kWh

"baseline" isn't specified; the user is referred to another raft of
god-awful charts, tariff rules, spreadsheets, and calculators, varying
per region.

HTH,
James Arthur

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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Yep, that's pretty much what it is out here. Want to be environmentally
conscious and install a heat pump? Forget about it. We knew a lady who
recently passed away, she paid a whopping $1k in one (!) month. So we
heat with wood.


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If you don't use A/C much and don't have a heat pump.


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Baseline is very little. A couple days of A/C use can push even the most
frugal households above it. That baseline rule together with
hyper-inflationary propane is like a stranglehold. It stifles business
development. When I had to find and equip a new site for our company
that was one reason why I told the commercial real estate broker "...
but not in El Dorado County" although I live there.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com /

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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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Healthcare is already in that state, no change needed.



Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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Yes, and that's come from the government providing just 40% of
healthcare dollars.

"If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it
costs when it's free!"  -P.J. O'Rourke

Cheers,
James Arthur

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
On Mon, 19 May 2008 07:38:48 -0700, Joerg

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If you can get any of the MS Office Suite applications up and running,
go unto:
  Tools -> Detect and Repair
You'll need the original Office or Excel CD.  That usually does the
trick.  Otherwiser, run the original setup, and tell it to repair
Office.  If that doesn't work, tell it to reinstall the existing
applications.  If that doesn't work, give up and install Open Office.

--
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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Well, it reads all other files just fine.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com /

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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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There are plenty of those. I think they learnt the style from IBM.

Even worse when it just dies or stops responding spontaneously. At least
these days it doesn't usually take the OS with it although I suspect
XL2007 took down Vista on my portable last week.

First time I have seen Vista completely dead in the water. Stopped
responding to the keyboard and then shortly after I tried to close
XL2007 the mouse pointer stopped with the pointer still on the close X.

Being a portable I had to wait for the battery to die. No reset button :(
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Chances are something is wrong with the file. You could try the XL
viewer (free download from MS) it is somewhat more error tolerant than
the main application (or a clone that will open XL workbooks). If it
opens copy and paste the stuff it can decode into a new worksheet.

Regards,
Martin Brown


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