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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
On Sun, 18 May 2008 16:40:09 -0700, Joerg

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One solution that I saw was an inverted siphon between the mixer
output pipe coming out of the wall, and the shower head.  The pipe was
about 6 ft long.  There was a bi-metallic thermometer clamped to the
entry point.  My guess is that it would give about a 3 second warning
of impending thermal excess.  The installation looked commercially
done and may have been part of aftermarket kit.  As I was a visitor, I
didn't give the shower a proper test flight.

It would be fairly trivial to build a proper mixer, with electronic
(or bi-metallic mechanical) temperature control and independent flow
control.  There were some on sale in Israel in the early 1970's when I
was there.  It's just that the apartment where I was living didn't
have one and apparently nobody thought the cost was justified.  People
can get used to almost anything.

I once had my bathroom sink setup as in a medical office or surgeons
wash room.  Limited manually adjustable temperature (to insure self
sterilization) and foot switch operated flow control (to prevent
contaminating the hands).  It saved considerable water and by
implication, considerable energy heating the water.  My ladyfriend at
the time found it "inconvenient" so I reluctantly removed it.
<http://www.faucetcontrol.com
<http://www.stepflow.com
<http://www.pedalvalve.com

An IR faucet adapter:
<http://www.ezfaucet.com

The same device could easily be installed in a shower, with foot valve
operation.  Set the temperature with a controlled mixing arrangement
and adjust the flow (or more crudely on/off) with a foot switch.  It's
even patented:
<http://www.google.com/patents?id=6uMvAAAAEBAJ&dq47%29135

So, what's preventing such installations in the home?  I once
discussed the issue with a local doctor, who was building a new house
at the time.  The Uniform Building Code for residential dwellings
won't allow such innovative plumbing.  It's perfectly acceptable for
commercial and hospital, just not residential.  I'll supply a suitable
conspiracy theory when I have time.

Hmmm.... I still have the parts of the foot operated sink valve
somewhere.  I should try to resurrect it.

Incidentally, one of the old but fun problems with hospital water
control is selecting the temperature.  One set of regulations demanded
that the water be hotter than 52C in order to minimally self
sterilize.  Another set of regulations from a different agency,
demanded that water be no warmer than 52C to prevent scalding.  This
was about 10 years ago, and hopefully a suitable compromise has been
reached by now.

"Control of nosocomial Legionnaires' disease by keeping the
circulating hot water temperature above 55 degrees C: experience from
a 10-year surveillance programme in a district general hospital."
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11886198

Google couldn't find anyone using a rooftop solar water heater as a
drinking water purifier or pasteurizer.  Stand alone yes, but not part
of the water heater pretzel:
<http://solarcooking.org/plans/spasteur.htm
<http://solarcooking.org/pasteurization/puddle.htm
Yet another opportunity ignored.


--
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?


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My wife works in a hospital where one inspection agency requires
plastic-bag liners in trash cans, and another agency forbids them.
They adjust according to which inspection is scheduled.

John




Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
snipped-for-privacy@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com says...
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A friend had the same sort of problem with trash can lids in his
restaurant.  The county health inspectors insisted on them and the
state inspectors gave him a major ding for having them.

--
Keith

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
On Sun, 18 May 2008 18:37:00 -0700, John Larkin

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One more for your collection.  OSHA requires rubber mats in the food
preparation areas in order to prevent slip and fall due to slop on the
floor.  Some other hospital safety agency forbids such rubber mats to
facilitate slop cleanup and prevent filth accumulation in the mats.
The hospital currently uses the same strategy.  Rubber mats are either
deployed or well hidden depending on the scheduled inspection type.


--
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com says...
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I just interviewed for a position as a network engineer for a hospital
group. They were telling me about the regulations regarding 802.11 gear,
it's enough to make your head spin.

The certification process is in a word, ridiculous.


Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?

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In about 1993, before HIPAA, I was working with a large medical office
management group.  The problem was that office space on the hospital
campus was expensive, so they moved across the freeway to a cheaper
location.  The problem was that the cost of a T1 was rather.  We were
looking into wireless.  All that was available in 1993 was Wavelan
802.11 at 2Mbits/sec (half that in thruput) and some 900MHz stuff from
OCT.  Good enough to replace a T1.  I submitted my proposal to the
hospital bureaucracy which was immediately rejected by the safety
committee.  Safety?  Yep.  They didn't want their patients
"irradiated" by all that evil wireless.  I eventually threw together
an IR system, that actually worked, but only to about 100Kbits/sec. It
also had the irritating habit of losing focus twice a day as the
thermal inversion layer hit the beam over the freeway.

A few years later, Wi-Fi became the high fashion buzzword, where
everything from heart monitors to crash carts were being deployed in
the hospital.  They even have a Cingular cell site on the roof of the
the cardiology unit:
<http://802.11junk.com/cellular/rich/DominicanHospital/

So, in 2003, someone figured it was safe to resurrect the idea of the
wireless link across the freeway.  They submitted roughly the same
plans, and were again rejected on the grounds of RF safety.  In
addition, HIPAA requirements had just become manditor, and nobody had
a clue whether wireless was acceptable.  That decision was in the
hands of the attorneys, who supplied the tranditional judgement, that
wireless was a potential problem and should be avoided.  Never mind
that in 2003 there were already a dozen wireless access points
scattered around the hospital (not counting those installed by the
doctors for their own use).  

Incidentally, I proposed and tested delivering Wi-Fi to the hospital
rooms via the HVAC ducting used as waveguide, which sorta worked, but
was also deemed a potential can of worms.

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The local hospital is owned by Catholic Healthcare West.  I have to
restrain myself not to call the process the "blessing" of the
hardware.  Also, I've had to survive an insurance company audit of the
medical offices equipment and procedures, which makes HIPAA wireless
certification look trivial by comparison.  (I haven't done any of that
since 1996, which explains why I'm still sane).

Actually, it's apparently becoming somewhat easier these days.  Some
wi-fi vendors are including regulatory and certification compliance
reports in their security packages.  For example:
<http://www.xirrus.com/products/security.php
<http://www.airmagnet.com/products/ea_cisco/

--
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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Our milk and much of the doorstep delivered milk in the UK is still
delivered on electric vehicles with no refrigeration. I suspect the
design of the vehicle hasn't changed much at all in the last 50 years,
some of the 'floats' I see have registration letters that indicate they
are over 40 years old.
--
Clint Sharp

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
put finger to keyboard and composed:

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Australia has plenty of gas. Maybe this car would be a viable option:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car

"The fourth-generation Chrysler turbine engine ran at up to 60,000 rpm
could use diesel fuel, unleaded gasoline, kerosene, JP-4 jet fuel, and
even vegetable oil. The engine would run virtually on anything and the
president of Mexico tested this theory by running one of the first
cars - successfully - on tequila. No adjustments were needed to switch
from one to another. The engine had a fifth as many moving parts as a
piston unit (60 rather than 300). The turbine was spinning on simple
sleeve bearings for vibration-free running. Its simplicity offered the
potential for long life, and because no combustion contaminants enter
engine oil, no oil changes were considered necessary. The 1963
Turbine's engine generated 130 brake horsepower (97 kW) and an instant
425 pound-feet (576 N∑m) of torque at stall speed, making it good for
0-60 mph in 12 seconds ..."

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?


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The exhaust was also known to melt asphalt pavement...though I suppose
that's better than a gamma tan from tail-gating a nuclear reactor.

--Damon, still hoping for a Mr. Fusion

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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There is a Ford Fusion:
http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/fusion/?v=html

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com /

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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?

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A ford Fusion for what?  MPG 20/29! Cripes my Toyota pickup truck gets
better than that!  Obviously nobody ESPECIALLY those at GM have ANY
intention of dealing with running out of oil!  They also seem to
prefer taking a backseat in the auto industry allowing other companies
to actually be number one.

Not only is there the ELECTRIC car fiasco, but there is much more as
well!

Consider the electric car. Yes, there are battery problems: Lead acid
are heavy. Ni-MH tend to discharge just sitting. and Li-Ion are very
expensive with a 5 year life.  BUT, the key is that these cars run on
COAL and not OIL!  That means that even though they leave something to
be desired in performance, you still get to keep driving to work every
day even when gasoline hits $100 a gallon.

Which brings up the point. Cars have various functions. Yes a nice
high performance gas car does a lot of things nicely. It has power, it
has range, it has comfort.  But a great deal of driving is just going
to work daily through slow city traffic. So an electric is ideal for
that. You recharge at night and go to work each day.  No wonder people
loved them. The idea of using an electric to perform ALL your driving
is dumb.  But splitting out your commuting driving for electric makes
great sense.

And in the meantime, hey I'm driving a "classic" Geo metro! 45/55 mpg
(actually measured by me!) Now go look at current offerings by auto
makers! NOTHING comes close.  It seems that building a Geo is sort of
like making a mummy, everyone has forgotten how to do it!  Cripes, I
LOVE that little car but support from GM is nil, they have offered
NOTHING like it for years, and pretend that this "technology" doesn't
even exist!  It's downright criminal!

And that's not even the limits!  One could use aluminum and carbon
fiber construction to go for some "real" mileage! But instead all we
have is a huge scam and wringing of hands as if nothing can be done.
I've got it, lets all drive to work in gigantic high-profit SUVs that
GM will happily supply [and then demand a higher salary to pay for the
increased fuel costs] You want a formula for disaster? There is one
for you!  And GM will support you in it.




Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?

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I totally agree. I am not totally satisfied with my 1997 Saturn SW1 average
33 MPG, but models made after about 2002 are much worse. I think after 9/11
gave us an excuse to invade the Middle East to get cheaper oil, the car
companies and energy giants decided that they could sell power and
performance rather than economy, and get richer doing so. And when that
plan backfired (or maybe it worked as planned), it was found that everyone
(except the middle classes who had bought into the big bad car/SUV scam),
could get even richer when demand soared and prices went up to what they
are today. They will likely stabilize when US prices reach par with the
rest of the world at about $6-$9/gallon, and by that time many people won't
have jobs to which to commute, and they will have had their SUVs
repossessed.

Paul



Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
Bizarre article about Geo Metros:
http://www.leftlanenews.com/90s-redux-geo-metro-ford-fiesta-back-on-the-block-thanks-to-excellent-fuel-economy.html

Paying $6k for a car that formerly fetched $1k?  Hmm... $5k still buys >30,000
miles of gas even at 25mpg...

They also point out that Metros didn't have ABS or airbags but that adding
them would have increased weight, the "enermy of high EPA ratings."  Come
on... how much can a couple of airbags and ABS brakes add to the weight of the
car?  Certainly < 100lbs.?

I am surprised that something like a Honda fit only gets ~34mpg on the
highway... I suppose it's the fact that the engine is much more powerful than
those in Metros?

---Joel



Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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Rover had built a similar car but AFAIR only one. The manager once let
another guy whom he'd picked up somewhere take it for a spin and he was
thoroughly impressed. But as usual the gas mileage was quite terrible.
Probably there is a lot of load change lag as well. Somehow a great
concept if one could get the NOX under control but nowadays all that is
water under the bridge anyhow.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com /

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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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The electric car killed the electric car.

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
http:/www.teslamotors.com

Seems to be very real.

And really expensive.

I'm waiting to see if they survive long enough to roll out their
"economy" concepts.  Are Elon Musk's pockets deep enough?

http://www.commutercars.com /

Here's one that seems more practical, but the company isn't
going anywhere fast after years of publicity.

Battery technology is critical.  I think a deep hybrid would
be more practical and affordable, but an all-electric with a
reliable 100 mile range would meet nearly all of my needs.


--Damon, wondering if his electric service would be adequate

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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There is a major stumbling block in areas like ours: Monopoly, plus
baseline usage rules the monopoly imposes. The millisecond you exceed
baseline by IIRC as little as 30% electricity becomes painfully
expensive. Anyone who dared to use their A/C in summer knows that.
Unless this changes or one can line up a sweet and most of all longterm
night-time deal there won't be a realistic future for electric cars.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com /

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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
On Fri, 16 May 2008 10:47:27 -0700, Joerg

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Joerg,  

How much of your electricity cost is actually California taxes?

How come electricity is dramatically cheaper in AZ than CA when you
have (or should have) lots of water-generated electricity?

                                        ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
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A coarse peek shows about 20% fees, charges, bond measures. A.k.a taxes.


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It probably is but since deregulation prices have skyrocketed. There is
a hockeystick effect in that up to a limit it stays a bit under 15c/kWh,
then shoots up sky-high. This stifles start-up business in the area but
politicians seem to fail to understand that.

In muni-supplied areas it's much better. I am not much for
gov-involvement but for electricity the fact is that people like us who
are served by private sector utilities must pay through the nose.
Because they gave them a monopoly and monopolies never work. With
monopolies they usually sock it to you.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com /

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Re: Who Killed the Electric Car?
On Fri, 16 May 2008 10:47:27 -0700, Joerg

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One former EV-1 owner has a solution to the electric power cost
problem:
<http://www.solarwarrior.com
<http://www.solarwarrior.com/why.html
--
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
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