What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power? - Page 4

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Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?

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No, you do not get to discharge that capavcity in one hour.
http://www.jgdarden.com/batteryfaq /
If you start to asorb that information, then you will start to make
credible statements.



Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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your an idiot!  1 hour is the conversion datum

read the entire post your moron

Herc

Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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hour.http://www.jgdarden.com/batteryfaq /
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definitely, look who I'm replying to.

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It gives people te idea that that capacity is usable in that time and it
isn't.
Low cost batteries need time to charge and discharge.
OTOH, capacitors.
The devil in all your schemes are the conversion rates and the losses
there in, i.e the practical bits.


Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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What is the basis of that claim?
Grid power equals very large economy of scale.
Solar power equals expensive, high maintenance storage device.

Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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I haven't looked at the details. Prices of panels have been dropping,
and the price of grid power (particularly in NSW) have been rising.
There's going to be a crossover point.

I've assumed in the discussion that no storage devices are involved. The
point of the posting was not to argue that solar is cheap, or cost
effective, but just to look at what will happen at some point in the
future given the way things have been going, and to raise a question
about whether solar panels are actually achieving anything other than to
line the pockets of some manufacturers.

Sylvia.


Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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Why do they install a roof just to cover it with solar panels?
I would imagine solar panel roofing material (tiles/paint) could save in
building costs and alter the math.

--
:-P

Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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A conventional house roof is very heavy. This means it tends not to get
blown away in high winds (despite being a less than ideal shape). The
way the tiles overlap means it's very easy to make a roof that doesn't leak.

If you get rid of the tiles, you need to address the structural and
waterproofing issues.

Sylvia.

Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?

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solar panels are not manufactured to funtion as roofing.
Caveat, Canon made some PV roof tiles about 2000. I think the major
problem was wiring the blighters up.

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Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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It's not really very efficient, even if they were available. Unless all
of your roof is facing North and unobstructed by adjacent buildings of
shading from trees. This is very rare. I looked at this option During
the design of my current house and decided it was not cost effective,
despite half the roof facing North. A low thermal inertia roof skin with
hot water and PV panels mounted at the most effective places is a better
option.



Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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It would be interesting to know what the cost per kWh would be over the
lifetime of the average PV system, amortising capital cost and eventual
disposal costs into the price. Then compare that to the average grid
feed price per kWh.



Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?

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That is what we are trying to educate Herc about.

Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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**I did the sums about 4 years ago. For about a week's energy needs, I'd
need to plonk down around $4k for high quality, lead/acid batteries.
With careful use of energy, that 7 days could be stretched further,
particularly given the lower energy requirements of many appliances now
(inverter air cons, LED/LCD TV sets, LED lighting, etc). $4k is less
than I spend every two years on coal generated power right now. As for
PV cells, don't forget that amorphous type cells are better at supplying
power in low/dappled light conditions. Price falls with these types of
cells are expected to be nothing short of spectacular over the next few
years. $10.00/sq Metre installed is not unreasonable, since the cells
could be incorportated into roofing materials at extremely low cost.

--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au



Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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Let's be clear that I'm looking at the total cost and total benefit, on
the assumption that neither consumers nor suppliers will install
batteries because the government will not require them to. If amorphous
cells fall in price soon, it just brings forward the point where the
economics of the grid generation as presently configured are undermined.

I'd still like to see an analysis of the long term effects on the choice
of generation plant (I don't have access to the required input data),
and the consequential net benefit, if any, in CO2 reduction.

If installation of solar cells doesn't in fact reduce CO2 emissions, and
doesn't reduce the true cost of electricity, then the money being spent
on them is just money that's being wasted.

Sylvia


Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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As pointed out this is scraremongering and gross abuse of simple
facts.

you can't INCREASE CO2 by REDUCING power requirements on the coal
plant.

Where is your DATA on your assumed halving of efficiency by varying
the load (down)?

Herc

Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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Coal plant? Who mentioned coal plants? Are you under the impression that
when you run your solar panels, you're reducing the consumption of coal?

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Where did I say it was halved?

The reduction in efficiency is a result of a choice of a different kind
of generation plant. The different choice arises because of the lower
utilisation, which shifts the optimum economics towards using more fuel,
but with less capital expenditure.

Sylvia.


Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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SOLAR GETS POPULAR
-> less energy required
-> cheaper power plants
-> no economy of scale
-> less efficient
-> burn more fuel
-> more pollution

OK, at what point does this actually produce more CO2?

Where is your DATA comparing 2 different sized power stations.

What ratio of size difference in power station will there be until
they do a bait-and-switch and swap to using those unearthly
inefficient smaller power stations that churn out X times CO2 due to
inefficiency of scale?

You reduce power requirements by 50%
and CO2 emmission goes up?

Where did you think up such a bunch of tripe?


Herc

Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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It's not that they're different sized in terms of power output, it's
that they are constructed differently.

The basic principle is this:

Capital investment incurs a cost - it's the money that could have been
earnt using the capital if it hadn't been invested in the particular
way. That cost continues day by day whether or not the generation plant
is running.

Running a generation plant incurs a cost - it's the money used to
provide it with fuel (and maintenance and other minor elements, but
mainly fuel). But unlike the capital cost, the running cost is only
incurred when the plant is running.

So for a given power capacity, there's a compromise to be made between
the capital cost and the running cost. The more capital you spend, the
more efficient you can make the plant, and the less fuel it will
consume. But the less the plant runs, the less you gain from the extra
capital. Beyond a certain point, additional capital doesn't pay for
itself in terms of reduced fuel consumption. Where that point lies
depends on the percentage utilisation.

Solar panels on roofs will reduce the time that other generation plant
is running. Essentially, the plant that would be running during the day
in the absence of solar panels will only be running when the sun isn't
shining. When it comes time to replace or build that plant, the decision
will be made that it's not sensible to spend so much capital on making
it efficient. So, for a given energy output, it will consume more fuel,
and therefore produce more CO2.

That's a qualititive analysis. I don't have the data for a quantitive one.

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It's not an inefficiency of scale. See above.

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You thought it up. I didn't say it.

Sylvia.

Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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if you are worrying about "emissions" I guess you should also worry about
whether or not the solar panels provide a slippery surface that could be a
safety issue for when Santa lands his sleigh on the roof at Christmas.  This is
a far more real concern.


 and
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Now that is more sensible and critical concern. The likely future price of power
should also be taken into account when doing calculations.



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Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?
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whether or not the solar panels provide a slippery surface that could be a
safety issue for when Santa lands his sleigh on the roof at Christmas.  This is
a far more real concern.

I'm not, particularly, but clearly some people are. It would be annoying
in the extreme if I'm having pay more for electricity because people are
implementing alleged CO2 reducing technologies that don't actually work.

Sylvia

Re: What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?

"Sylvia Else"

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** Nooooooo .....

 Now who ever would think a terrible thought like that ??




....   Phil



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