Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop

UPS.

Fraser

yeah, only line interactive would work though? i aint got 500 for one:(

i was told a few caps and a toroid would help, just they never told me what the circuit i'd need to build would be. i have it running off a belkin surge board, my ups is only a relay when the power cuts

I built my own amplifier once and I was surprised how much less sensitive it was to pops and clicks from the mains (and also it was pretty much immune to GSM phones unlike most consumer audio equipment). Presumably this kind of thing is not a priority for the big manufacturers.

Is the equipment which is the source of the audio signal that is feeding your 5.1 system powered from the same socket or a different one to the 5.1 amplifier? I would suggest putting them all on the same power board.

If it is only one or two appliances that are interfering with your audio, then it might make sense to put a properly rated snubber (resistor and capacitor in series) or varistor across the fan motor after the switch, and the same across the washing machine motor. If you are not sure about this ask someone experienced in servicing those kinds of appliances, they might be able to help you.

The other option is to try to suppress the spikes on the mains lines going to your audio setup. The first step would be to run it all off one power board, to stop interference currents from running through the braid of your audio cables. If you have cable TV connections or other conducting paths in and out of your audio setup, then disconnect them all temporarily to see if this can narrow down the problem. The next step would be to put a pi style filter in series with the active and neutral conductors of the mains cable to the power board. There are some safety regulations regarding doing this, in particular the capacitors have to be specially rated (X and Y ratings depending on where they are used). You might be able to buy a suitable filter, however beware that most mains filters put a single choke with two winding, rather than two separate chokes in series with the active and neutral lines and the windings are connected so that there is plenty of common-mode inductance but very little differential inductance. This enables them to use a small core in the choke without it saturating when a large mains current is drawn, but it also makes it pretty useless for removing the spikes due to other appliances which are often mostly differential. If you can find a filter with separate inductors for active and neutral then this might be better.

Here is a page which might give you some ideas:

Chris

"Archades"

** The only fix that really works is to fit RC snubbers to the fan and washer.

The spark energy from the switches on the fan and inside the washer is a mix of audio and RF frequencies that is radiated by the AC wiring in the house and injects the noise into speaker and other audio cables in the hi-fi system.

......... Phil

First, the electronic power supply should have made such trivial line noise irrelevant. But if selling a clone type product, then many simply forget to include some functions. A typically line filter can be installed to do what the power supply should have already included. Some examples of that solution:

Other soluti> yeah, only line interactive would work though? i aint got 500 for one:(

Just a quick warning. Depending upon the way the motor is driven, it may be a bad idea to fit snubbers. The fan i cant see being a problem, but with many new washing machines using IGBT drives, a poor choice of snubber can fry the the output. In most cases, the IGBT drive will be noise free, but sometimes they are not.

Washing machine solenoids are sometimes driven with IGBT's too, to get a variable flow rate. Same applies as the motor.

I agree with this the shitty chinese (or whatever) 5.1 and other products are short of the uasual components required of a quality design

1. pay more for a better product
2. fit aftermarket filters to the interference source or 5.1
3. if you have 3ph supply to the house, use different phases for the gear --rewiring job.
4. dont use the 5.1 when using the other gear etc etc

"Chris Jones" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com... : Archades wrote: : : > Fraser Johnston wrote: : >> "Archades" wrote in message : >> news:dl21jn$7uq$ snipped-for-privacy@austar-news.austar.net.au... : >>

: >>>hi, just a simple problem, whenever i have my 5.1 speakers on, and i : >>>change position on fan switch, or when the washing machine is running, : >>>especially when the motor alternates every few seconds, i get crackles : >>>and pops through the speakers, just wondering if there were any cheapish : >>>1-100 dollar products to fix this? or is there soemthing u could build : >>

: >>

: >> UPS. : >>

: >> Fraser : >>

: >>

: > yeah, only line interactive would work though? i aint got 500 for one:( : >

: > i was told a few caps and a toroid would help, just they never told me : > what the circuit i'd need to build would be. : > i have it running off a belkin surge board, my ups is only a relay when : > the power cuts : : I built my own amplifier once and I was surprised how much less sensitive it : was to pops and clicks from the mains (and also it was pretty much immune : to GSM phones unlike most consumer audio equipment). Presumably this kind : of thing is not a priority for the big manufacturers. : : Is the equipment which is the source of the audio signal that is feeding : your 5.1 system powered from the same socket or a different one to the

5.1 : amplifier? I would suggest putting them all on the same power board. : : If it is only one or two appliances that are interfering with your audio, : then it might make sense to put a properly rated snubber (resistor and : capacitor in series) or varistor across the fan motor after the switch, and : the same across the washing machine motor. If you are not sure about this : ask someone experienced in servicing those kinds of appliances, they might : be able to help you. : : The other option is to try to suppress the spikes on the mains lines going : to your audio setup. The first step would be to run it all off one power : board, to stop interference currents from running through the braid of your : audio cables. If you have cable TV connections or other conducting paths : in and out of your audio setup, then disconnect them all temporarily to see : if this can narrow down the problem. The next step would be to put a pi : style filter in series with the active and neutral conductors of the mains : cable to the power board. There are some safety regulations regarding : doing this, in particular the capacitors have to be specially rated (X and : Y ratings depending on where they are used). You might be able to buy a : suitable filter, however beware that most mains filters put a single choke : with two winding, rather than two separate chokes in series with the active : and neutral lines and the windings are connected so that there is plenty of : common-mode inductance but very little differential inductance. This : enables them to use a small core in the choke without it saturating when a : large mains current is drawn, but it also makes it pretty useless for : removing the spikes due to other appliances which are often mostly : differential. If you can find a filter with separate inductors for active : and neutral then this might be better. : : Here is a page which might give you some ideas: : : : Chris

I was going to supply a point by point explanation of why everything you said is utter crap, then i decided there is no point. You have no idea.

wow, alot of ideas, though i would like to hear all the points:D

the speakers in question are Logitech z-5500, by no means cheap chinese shit, for 500 they wouldnt want to be, however they are affected deeply by the changes in power.

as for putting something in the washign machine, not sure i'd really want to do that, it's around 10 years old though, i think i would rather have the filtration nearest my expensive pc and speakers, plus other thigns like fan/light switchs could be filtered out too i guess.the speakers,are powered via an amp on the subwoofer itself, and it'splugged into the belkin surge board (gold series) which also has my pc and the pc is running through a standard switching ups, 80dollars, does the job for keeping it alive during a short outage.

computer is powering speakers, all on same power socket,

as im not too clued up on electronics, i'd prefer a buy it, plug it in, hooray solution, under 100 bucks, so im a lil confused by the sites. newbie i am lol

im surprised there hasnt been more coverage of these problems in many magazines, or internet with affordable easy to use solutions.

"The Real Andy" Phil Allison

** Err - the "snubber" only needs fitting to the AC lead of the washer, inside the washer.

My 7 year old " Simpson " top loader had no RFI suppression if any kind.

A simple 0.047 uF class X cap across the AC lead did wonders.

......... Phil

Phil Allison demonstrates massive noise suppression without major technical knowledge. Your assumptions that "i would rather have the filtration nearest my expensive pc and speakers" just is not consistent with technology and the principles behind your problem. If really worried about protecting that equipment, well, the Belkin surge board can even contribute to damage of that equipment. IOW you are making premature conclusions without first learning basic and underlying concepts.

One of those concepts - most effective solution is usually to eliminate the problem at its source.

Long ago, putting snubbers across mechanical switches was standard for both extending life of that switch AND reducing noise. Internal electronic power supply functions that would have made that noise irrelevant also do far more than the Belkin could ever accomplish to protect transistors.

Does not matter how much speakers cost. What is their power source? Inadequate power source is one possible reason for your noise problem. A problem not solved by plugging everyone into a common source or using the Belkin surge board - that does not even claim to provide such function.

Welcome to the world of EMI/RFI. Sometimes the solution to such problems is complex. Even worse, effective plug-in solutions can cost on the order of $100 with names such as Zerosurge, Surgex, and Brickwall. If you are looking for a plug-in solution, you are seeking scams or spending big bucks. BTW, not all big buck solutions actually address noise problems which is why your solution must provide numerous numerical specs.

Meanwhile, you don't even know if that noise is completely bypassing protection - entering on safety ground wire. EMI/RFI solutions can become that confusing.

Comm> wow, alot of ideas, though i would like to hear all the points:D

the word newbie usually says that i have no idea lol i know the belkin doesnt claim to solve it, i was saying i would like to have wall socket -> filtration -> belkin -> equip, so that other things liek light switchs etc wont send through the stuff either, but thats just purely guessing it, so i decided to post on this forum to find out how.

i will say again i am a newbie, so i am looking for the ideas for this problem.

can a person build their own plug in box to fix it? if so how? i am also considering the ac snubber as well once i talk to my electrician mate, and yes i know it's dirty power, which im trying to fix, once i can fully understand how to, so a lil help wouldnt go astray.

the belkin was bought as it has a $250 000 equipment warrenty if god decides to send some lightning ur way.

the most ive done with electronics is play around with some leds, builda kit project, and make an IR reciever for the pc, for the pc control software, Girder.

A solution to put in a box was posted previously - products from Corcom and Shurter, for example. But you are dealing with EMI/RFI which is rather difficult and learned by doing things such as snubbers, the bypass capacitor, and line filters. The Phil Allison recommendation is most strongly recommended as a first thing attempted. The capacitor should have voltage ratings of at least 400 volts - 600 would be better. In fact capacitors designed just for such purpose are sold.

Ever read that long list of exemptions attached to a Belkin warranty? One would be lucky to only get the Belkin replaced. For insurance, go to a licensed insurance broker who will cost less money and who must actually honor claims per the law. Why does the Belkin insurance claim sound so much better than a licensed broker? Read all those exemption in fine print.

I don't understand why protection from a light switch is required. If powering the computer through a switched outlet, then use another outlet. If noise (a few volts) from a changing switch requires protection, well, its may be myth promoted originally by same who recommended the Belkin product.

The Belkin power board provides same advantages that any non-protector power board does. First it provides numerous receptacles. Second, it contains an inline fuse or circuit breaker so that electrical failures don't threaten human life. Far less money would have accomplished same. The most important feature is that circuit breaker. Meanwhile, appreciate dangers created by protector type power boards:

Where would you place one of the above Belkin equivalents? Internal protector components create danger which is why one should consider where it is located.

Corcom, Shurter, and other l> the word newbie usually says that i have no idea lol

ok, just curious why does it need to be 0.047uf?

and i cant seem to find it on jaycar, anyone got the part number handy? u wire it on each of the 2 leads on teh motor right? in parallel, also doesnt a snubber have a resistor as well?

as for the lightswitchs, its more the fan switch but soemtimes the lightswitchs will send a thump through, the amp doesnt have a decent filter

0.047 uf is just one typically number. Other values so often used are 0.001 or 0.01 uf. Of course a larger capacitance, means larger leakage current. We prefer to have leakage well below a milliamp. So these are values typically used.

Snubbers can be a capacitor across the switch or can be a capacitor and resistor in parallel across the switch. These values are often 'played' with to obtain best results - most noise reduction.

BTW, another l> ok, just curious why does it need to be 0.047uf?

w_tom wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com:

I think you mean the capand resistor are in series and then across the switch. the resistor's job is to absorb high frequency energy and convert it to heat.

Please do yourself a favour and reearch (google) Class X and Class Y caps.

It's cheaper to fit a muffler on a noisy lawnmower than to soundproof the house but it's your money...

the washing machine is likely emitting RF noise into the power cabling that's then radiated and picked up by your speaker cables and goes into the amplifier to reemerge as clicks and pops.

if you can identify the sources of interrferance they are the easiest places to block it.

you can buy a line conditioners.... AKA filters, dunno if your belkin surce protector has a filter in it you still get interferance in thoigh the speaker cables...

--

Bye.
   Jasen

ISTR seeing a kit in a DSE catalogue,

That's a good reason to use it but I bet the warranty doesn't cover data. so back that up regularly just in case. they don't build those things for zero failure, probably more like 1 in 10000.

Bye. Jasen