Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop

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hi, just a simple problem, whenever i have my 5.1 speakers on, and i
change position on fan switch, or when the washing machine is running,
especially when the motor alternates every few seconds, i get crackles
and pops through the speakers, just wondering if there were any cheapish
   1-100 dollar products to fix this? or is there soemthing u could build

thanks

Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop



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UPS.

Fraser



Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop


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yeah, only line interactive would work though? i aint got 500 for one:(

i was told a few caps and a toroid would help, just they never told me
what the circuit i'd need to build would be.
i have it running off a belkin surge board, my ups is only a relay when
the power cuts

Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop



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I built my own amplifier once and I was surprised how much less sensitive it
was to pops and clicks from the mains (and also it was pretty much immune
to GSM phones unlike most consumer audio equipment).  Presumably this kind
of thing is not a priority for the big manufacturers.

Is the equipment which is the source of the audio signal that is feeding
your 5.1 system powered from the same socket or a different one to the 5.1
amplifier?  I would suggest putting them all on the same power board.

If it is only one or two appliances that are interfering with your audio,
then it might make sense to put a properly rated snubber (resistor and
capacitor in series) or varistor across the fan motor after the switch, and
the same across the washing machine motor.  If you are not sure about this
ask someone experienced in servicing those kinds of appliances, they might
be able to help you.

The other option is to try to suppress the spikes on the mains lines going
to your audio setup.  The first step would be to run it all off one power
board, to stop interference currents from running through the braid of your
audio cables.  If you have cable TV connections or other conducting paths
in and out of your audio setup, then disconnect them all temporarily to see
if this can narrow down the problem.  The next step would be to put a pi
style filter in series with the active and neutral conductors of the mains
cable to the power board.  There are some safety regulations regarding
doing this, in particular the capacitors have to be specially rated (X and
Y ratings depending on where they are used).  You might be able to buy a
suitable filter, however beware that most mains filters put a single choke
with two winding, rather than two separate chokes in series with the active
and neutral lines and the windings are connected so that there is plenty of
common-mode inductance but very little differential inductance.  This
enables them to use a small core in the choke without it saturating when a
large mains current is drawn, but it also makes it pretty useless for
removing the spikes due to other appliances which are often mostly
differential.  If you can find a filter with separate inductors for active
and neutral then this might be better.

Here is a page which might give you some ideas:
http://www.schaffner.com/components/en/product/productL23.asp?language_id12 %

Chris

Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop


I agree with this
the shitty chinese (or whatever) 5.1 and other products are short of the
uasual components required of a quality design

1. pay more for a better product
2. fit aftermarket filters to the interference source or 5.1
3. if you have 3ph supply to the house, use different phases for the
gear --rewiring job.
4. dont use the 5.1 when using the other gear
etc
etc


: Archades wrote:
:
: > Fraser Johnston wrote:
: >>
: >>>hi, just a simple problem, whenever i have my 5.1 speakers on, and
i
: >>>change position on fan switch, or when the washing machine is
running,
: >>>especially when the motor alternates every few seconds, i get
crackles
: >>>and pops through the speakers, just wondering if there were any
cheapish
: >>>1-100 dollar products to fix this? or is there soemthing u could
build
: >>
: >>
: >> UPS.
: >>
: >> Fraser
: >>
: >>
: > yeah, only line interactive would work though? i aint got 500 for
one:(
: >
: > i was told a few caps and a toroid would help, just they never told
me
: > what the circuit i'd need to build would be.
: > i have it running off a belkin surge board, my ups is only a relay
when
: > the power cuts
:
: I built my own amplifier once and I was surprised how much less
sensitive it
: was to pops and clicks from the mains (and also it was pretty much
immune
: to GSM phones unlike most consumer audio equipment).  Presumably this
kind
: of thing is not a priority for the big manufacturers.
:
: Is the equipment which is the source of the audio signal that is
feeding
: your 5.1 system powered from the same socket or a different one to the
5.1
: amplifier?  I would suggest putting them all on the same power board.
:
: If it is only one or two appliances that are interfering with your
audio,
: then it might make sense to put a properly rated snubber (resistor and
: capacitor in series) or varistor across the fan motor after the
switch, and
: the same across the washing machine motor.  If you are not sure about
this
: ask someone experienced in servicing those kinds of appliances, they
might
: be able to help you.
:
: The other option is to try to suppress the spikes on the mains lines
going
: to your audio setup.  The first step would be to run it all off one
power
: board, to stop interference currents from running through the braid of
your
: audio cables.  If you have cable TV connections or other conducting
paths
: in and out of your audio setup, then disconnect them all temporarily
to see
: if this can narrow down the problem.  The next step would be to put a
pi
: style filter in series with the active and neutral conductors of the
mains
: cable to the power board.  There are some safety regulations regarding
: doing this, in particular the capacitors have to be specially rated (X
and
: Y ratings depending on where they are used).  You might be able to buy
a
: suitable filter, however beware that most mains filters put a single
choke
: with two winding, rather than two separate chokes in series with the
active
: and neutral lines and the windings are connected so that there is
plenty of
: common-mode inductance but very little differential inductance.  This
: enables them to use a small core in the choke without it saturating
when a
: large mains current is drawn, but it also makes it pretty useless for
: removing the spikes due to other appliances which are often mostly
: differential.  If you can find a filter with separate inductors for
active
: and neutral then this might be better.
:
: Here is a page which might give you some ideas:
:
http://www.schaffner.com/components/en/product/productL23.asp?language_id12 %
:
: Chris


Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop



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I was going to supply a point by point explanation of why everything
you said is utter crap, then i decided there is no point. You have no
idea.

Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop


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wow, alot of ideas, though i would like to hear all the points:D

the speakers in question are Logitech z-5500, by no means cheap chinese
shit, for 500 they wouldnt want to be, however they are affected deeply
by the changes in power.

as for putting something in the washign machine, not sure i'd really
want to do that, it's around 10 years old though, i think i would rather
have the filtration nearest my expensive pc and speakers, plus other
thigns like fan/light switchs could be filtered out too i guess.the
speakers,are powered via an amp on the subwoofer itself, and it'splugged
into the belkin surge board (gold series) which also has my pc and the
pc is running through a standard switching ups, 80dollars, does the job
for keeping it alive during a short outage.

computer is powering speakers, all on same power socket,

as im not too clued up on electronics, i'd prefer a buy it, plug it in,
hooray solution, under 100 bucks, so im a lil confused by the sites.
newbie i am lol

im surprised there hasnt been more coverage of these problems in many
magazines, or internet with affordable easy to use solutions.

Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop


  Phil Allison demonstrates massive noise suppression without
major technical knowledge.  Your assumptions that "i would
rather have the filtration nearest my expensive pc and
speakers" just is not consistent with technology and the
principles behind your problem.  If really worried about
protecting that equipment, well, the Belkin surge board can
even contribute to damage of that equipment.  IOW you are
making premature conclusions without first learning basic and
underlying concepts.

  One of those concepts - most effective solution is usually
to eliminate the problem at its source.

  Long ago, putting snubbers across mechanical switches was
standard for both extending life of that switch AND reducing
noise.  Internal electronic power supply functions that would
have made that noise irrelevant also do far more than the
Belkin could ever accomplish to protect transistors.

  Does not matter how much speakers cost.  What is their power
source?  Inadequate power source is one possible reason for
your noise problem.  A problem not solved by plugging everyone
into a common source or using the Belkin surge board - that
does not even claim to provide such function.

  Welcome to the world of EMI/RFI.  Sometimes the solution to
such problems is complex.  Even worse, effective plug-in
solutions can cost on the order of $100 with names such as
Zerosurge, Surgex, and Brickwall. If you are looking for a
plug-in solution, you are seeking scams or spending big
bucks.  BTW, not all big buck solutions actually address noise
problems which is why your solution must provide numerous
numerical specs.

  Meanwhile, you don't even know if that noise is completely
bypassing protection - entering on safety ground wire.
EMI/RFI solutions can become that confusing.

  Common reason why such solutions are not commonly
discussed?  Solution is usually already found in better power
supplies and in appliances so they don't recreate such noise.

Archades wrote:
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Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop


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the word newbie usually says that i have no idea lol
i know the belkin doesnt claim to solve it, i was saying i would like to
have wall socket -> filtration -> belkin -> equip, so that other things
liek light switchs etc wont send through the stuff either, but thats
just purely guessing it, so i decided to post on this forum to find out
how.

i will say again i am a newbie, so i am looking for the ideas for this
problem.

can a person build their own plug in box to fix it? if so how? i am also
considering the ac snubber as well once i talk to my electrician mate,
and yes i know it's dirty power, which im trying to fix, once i can
fully understand how to, so a lil help wouldnt go astray.

the belkin was bought as it has a $250 000 equipment warrenty if god
decides to send some lightning ur way.

the most ive done with electronics is play around with some leds, builda
kit project, and make an IR reciever for the pc, for the pc control
software, Girder.

Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop


  A solution to put in a box was posted previously - products
from Corcom and Shurter, for example.   But you are dealing
with EMI/RFI which is rather difficult and learned by doing
things such as snubbers, the bypass capacitor, and line
filters.  The Phil Allison recommendation is most strongly
recommended as a first thing attempted.  The capacitor should
have voltage ratings of at least 400 volts - 600 would be
better.  In fact capacitors designed just for such purpose are
sold.

  Ever read that long list of exemptions attached to a Belkin
warranty?  One would be lucky to only get the Belkin
replaced.  For insurance, go to a licensed insurance broker
who will cost less money and who must actually honor claims
per the law.  Why does the Belkin insurance claim sound so
much better than a licensed broker?  Read all those exemption
in fine print.

  I don't understand why protection from a light switch is
required.  If powering the computer through a switched outlet,
then use another outlet.  If noise (a few volts) from a
changing switch requires protection, well, its may be myth
promoted originally by same who recommended the Belkin
product.

  The Belkin power board provides same advantages that any
non-protector power board does.  First it provides numerous
receptacles.  Second, it contains an inline fuse or circuit
breaker so that electrical failures don't threaten human
life.  Far less money would have accomplished same.  The most
important feature is that circuit breaker.  Meanwhile,
appreciate dangers created by protector type power boards:
 
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf
  http://www.ehs.washington.edu/LabSaf/surge.htm
  http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page55%6&parent55%4
  http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm

  Where would you place one of the above Belkin equivalents?
Internal protector components create danger which is why one
should consider where it is located.

  Corcom, Shurter, and other line filters are obtained through
any electronics supply house.  Same with the capacitor and
other solutions suggested by Phil.

Archades wrote:
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Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop


ok, just curious why does it need to be 0.047uf?

and i cant seem to find it on jaycar, anyone got the part number handy?
u wire it on each of the 2 leads on teh motor right? in parallel, also
doesnt a snubber have a resistor as well?

as for the lightswitchs, its more the fan switch but soemtimes the
lightswitchs will send a thump through, the amp doesnt have a decent filter

Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop


  0.047 uf is just one typically number.  Other values so
often used are 0.001 or 0.01 uf.  Of course a larger
capacitance, means larger leakage current.  We prefer to have
leakage well below a milliamp.  So these are values typically
used.

  Snubbers can be a capacitor across the switch or can be a
capacitor and resistor in parallel across the switch.  These
values are often 'played' with to obtain best results - most
noise reduction.

  BTW, another line filter manufacturer - Primary Power
Components.

Archades wrote:
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Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop



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I think you mean the capand resistor are in series and then across the
switch. the resistor's job is to absorb high frequency energy and convert
it to heat.


Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop


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i just did some googling (with much confusion) and i guess i might as
well use a y rated? better safety?
ok, btw the washing machine is a Hoover Gemini, like 8 years old..
so a 0.047uf y rated cap, across the 2 terminals of the motor should
help?, ill see if i can get my electrician friend to do it..
you say play around with to find the best filtering, how would you play
around with the resistance and capacitance?

Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop


as you appear to have interference from multiple sources then, if you
are sure the amp is a quality design, you may want to consider it being
faulty.

also look at your visual interference detector - the tv - to determine
the radiated interference of various items before and after any steps
you take to reduce the problem.

: Geoff C wrote:
: >
: >
: >>  0.047 uf is just one typically number.  Other values so
: >>often used are 0.001 or 0.01 uf.  Of course a larger
: >>capacitance, means larger leakage current.  We prefer to have
: >>leakage well below a milliamp.  So these are values typically
: >>used.
: >>
: >>  Snubbers can be a capacitor across the switch or can be a
: >>capacitor and resistor in parallel across the switch.  These
: >>values are often 'played' with to obtain best results - most
: >>noise reduction.
: >>
: >
: >
: > I think you mean the capand resistor are in series and then across
the
: > switch. the resistor's job is to absorb high frequency energy and
convert
: > it to heat.
: >
: i just did some googling (with much confusion) and i guess i might as
: well use a y rated? better safety?
: ok, btw the washing machine is a Hoover Gemini, like 8 years old..
: so a 0.047uf y rated cap, across the 2 terminals of the motor should
: help?, ill see if i can get my electrician friend to do it..
: you say play around with to find the best filtering, how would you
play
: around with the resistance and capacitance?


Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop


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our tv doesnt seem to show any sign of it, but the other sound systems
in teh house do, pops, clicks, its not high quality home theatre systems
but just computer speakers, still quite pricey.

im thinking of another solution, get an electrician to run some new
cables just for my room, and my brothers, to the switchboard on a new
circuit?

Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop



: Ed- wrote:
: > as you appear to have interference from multiple sources then, if
you
: > are sure the amp is a quality design, you may want to consider it
being
: > faulty.
: >
: > also look at your visual interference detector - the tv - to
determine
: > the radiated interference of various items before and after any
steps
: > you take to reduce the problem.
: >
: > : Geoff C wrote:
: > : >
: > : >
: > : >>  0.047 uf is just one typically number.  Other values so
: > : >>often used are 0.001 or 0.01 uf.  Of course a larger
: > : >>capacitance, means larger leakage current.  We prefer to have
: > : >>leakage well below a milliamp.  So these are values typically
: > : >>used.
: > : >>
: > : >>  Snubbers can be a capacitor across the switch or can be a
: > : >>capacitor and resistor in parallel across the switch.  These
: > : >>values are often 'played' with to obtain best results - most
: > : >>noise reduction.
: > : >>
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > I think you mean the capand resistor are in series and then
across
: > the
: > : > switch. the resistor's job is to absorb high frequency energy
and
: > convert
: > : > it to heat.
: > : >
: > : i just did some googling (with much confusion) and i guess i might
as
: > : well use a y rated? better safety?
: > : ok, btw the washing machine is a Hoover Gemini, like 8 years old..
: > : so a 0.047uf y rated cap, across the 2 terminals of the motor
should
: > : help?, ill see if i can get my electrician friend to do it..
: > : you say play around with to find the best filtering, how would you
: > play
: > : around with the resistance and capacitance?
: >
: our tv doesnt seem to show any sign of it, but the other sound systems
: in teh house do, pops, clicks, its not high quality home theatre
systems
: but just computer speakers, still quite pricey.
:
: im thinking of another solution, get an electrician to run some new
: cables just for my room, and my brothers, to the switchboard on a new
: circuit?

ok, but confirm the method by which the interference is getting in to
the amp first, or you could be spending cash for no positive outcome.

maybe run a long extension lead into the garden and try an amp plugged
into different mains sockets.
move the position of the amp and speakers as well.


Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop



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Please do yourself a favour and reearch (google) Class X and Class Y
caps.

Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop



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ISTR seeing a kit in a DSE catalogue,

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That's a good reason to use it but I bet the warranty doesn't cover data.
so back that up regularly just in case. they don't build those things for
zero failure, probably more like 1 in 10000.

Bye.
   Jasen

Re: Washing Machine, Voltage Spikes, Speakers Pop


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It's cheaper to fit a muffler on a noisy lawnmower than to soundproof
the house but it's your money...

the washing machine is likely emitting RF noise into the power cabling
that's then radiated and picked up by your speaker cables and goes into the
amplifier to reemerge as clicks and pops.

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if you can identify the sources of interrferance they are the easiest
places to block it.

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you can buy a line conditioners.... AKA filters,
dunno if your belkin surce protector has a filter in it  
you still get interferance in thoigh the speaker cables...

--

Bye.
   Jasen

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