Using electric field to thin fuel

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Wonder why no one has thought of this before!

http://www.temple.edu/newsroom/2008_2009/09/stories/taofueldevice.htm

Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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Hasn't this (similar) been done to death before?

--
Kipland.

Re: Using electric field to thin fuel


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Hasn't this (similar) been done to death before?

--
Kipland.

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Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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A bottle of snake oil ?

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Regards
Dan.



Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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Because its bullshit?



Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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It has been done before and will be done again.  It is all bullshit.

Here is a basic test to apply to any device like this that you see
advertised. "If a simple device like this could deliver even a 5% increase
in fuel economy don't you think GM, Ford, Toyota etc would snap it up and
put it on their vehicles?"   These guys spend Billions on more fuel
efficient vehicles and you really think some nut case in a back room can do
a better job?   Or wouldn't you at least to expect to see it in F1 racing?

Cheers TT



Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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As long as there are gullible people with money anyway. You can more easily
"thin the fuel" by simply routing the fuel line closer to the exhaust
manifold anyway (not that it will improve economy though, unless possibly
the car was running too rich to start with, only if modern electronic fuel
injection and EG sensors are not in use)
However the fire risk may increase though :-)

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Hell a 1% *genuine* increase in fuel economy would be enough. But they have
proper test benches to accurately measure fuel consumption at all load
levels, something the snake oilers never bother with.

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Peter Brock used it on his car didn't he :-) :-)

MrT.



Re: Using electric field to thin fuel
put finger to keyboard and composed:

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That was my first impression, and I'm still very skeptical, but the
researchers appear to have some independent test results that support
their claims, at least in respect of diesel engines.

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The researchers claim that one Italian diesel engine manufacturer has
tested the device and obtained a 5% improvement on the dyno.

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The researchers are physicists based at a university.

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It couldn't even be tested without serious modification. The
researchers found that at 1900 RPM the optimum electric field was
1kV/mm, and the minimum time required for the fluid to be subjected to
the field was 5 seconds. The fuel flow under racing conditions would
be an order of magnitude greater, which would mean that the device
would need to be much longer. Of course you could have one small
device per cylinder ...

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- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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Yep, I've got an engineer mate who served as a ships engineer and he tells
the story of getting some thin (compared to the tar they had) russian
diesel fuel for the ship and "the old girl practically flew all the way
home"


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All the scamsters say that same sort of stuff.
Did they list the reference and did it check out?
Or is this "trust me, would I lie to you" all over again?



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"Trust me, I used to be a used car salesman before I started flogging this
shit"  :-))  That is the usual scenario.

Cheers TT



Re: Using electric field to thin fuel
On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:45:28 +1100, terryc

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The difference in performance could be due to the higher grade, ie
higher calorific value, rather than lower viscosity.

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I am as skeptical as the next person, probably more so, but I also
read the literature, assuming anything is available. The article I
referenced in my other post identifies the manufacturer as Cornaglia
Iveco. That same article has a [skimpy] table of results.

Having said that, when I first checked out the reference, Google
turned up only 18 hits on "Cornaglia Iveco", all of them in relation
to the "thin fuel" tests. This made me suspicious.

However, this Wikipedia article ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iveco

... states that "Iveco is an Italian truck, bus, and diesel engine
manufacturer, based in Turin, Italy. It is a subsidiary of the Fiat
Group, and produces around 200,000 commercial vehicles and 460,000
diesel engines annually".

I haven't contacted them, though. I assume the journalists have
already done that. ;-)

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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That part isn't rocket science. Of course engines run best with fuel that's
in a particularly heaviness range. The question is whether an electric field
can cause the change in properties. Given the amount of effort an energy
that's used in standard refining processes that reshape hydrocarbon
molecules, I doubt that just an electric field could have much effect.

If there's a buck in it, trust noone. Tim Johnston is the living proof. It's
just as easy for the con artists to put on spectacles and sit in front of a
desk with books behind it as it is for them to throw pissups for footy
teams.

<snip>



Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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Actually they say the effect lasts for a couple of hours, so could obviously
be done in the fueling rig before it even goes into the racing car. Therfore
no weight penalty, or other problems.

MrT.



Re: Using electric field to thin fuel
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Re: Using electric field to thin fuel
keyboard and composed:

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The researchers claim that the effect on crude petroleum lasts for up
to 8 hours. They didn't make any such claims in respect of diesel or
petrol.

The article states that "under the same pressure, the average size of
diesel fuel droplets is much bigger than the average size of gasoline
droplets, because diesel fuel has much higher viscosity than gasoline.
Therefore, reducing the viscosity of the fuel greatly improves the
fuel atomization."

One would expect that, if diesel fuel has a much higher viscosity,
then the effects on gasoline would be correspondingly less. In fact
the researchers appear cagey in respect of their gasoline testing.
They only quote results for gasoline when blended with 20% ethanol.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

:put finger to keyboard and composed:
:
:>
:>> Wonder why no one has thought of this before!
:>>
:>> http://www.temple.edu/newsroom/2008_2009/09/stories/taofueldevice.htm
:>
:>It has been done before and will be done again.  It is all bullshit.
:
:That was my first impression, and I'm still very skeptical, but the
:researchers appear to have some independent test results that support
:their claims, at least in respect of diesel engines.

Didn't Firepower have "independent test results" for their fuel pill too? Tim
Johnston sure managed to scam people for up to $100M on that one.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/firepower-boss-feeling-the-heat/2007/09/28/1190486568678.html


Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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Tim
http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/firepower-boss-feeling-the-heat/2007/09 /
28/1190486568678.html

As PT Barnum may have said "there's a sucker born every minute", but that
was in a world with a lower birth rate than currently :-)

MrT.



Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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It would seem that academia will resort to anything for the sake of
publicity these days!...  You'd also have to wonder what effect money
might have on their "principles".

Perhaps John McCain will fix it!  ;-)

--
John H

Re: Using electric field to thin fuel
finger to keyboard and composed:

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The following article refers to two sets of tests, one by the
researchers, the other by an Italian diesel engine manufacturer:

"Electrorheology Leads to Efficient Combustion"

R. Tao,* K. Huang, H. Tang, and D. Bell
Department of Physics, Temple University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
19122

http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/sample.cgi/enfuem/asap/html/ef8004898.html

This is a more technical article on rheology by the same researchers.
It is aimed at reducing the viscosity of crude oil for transportation
via pipelines:

"Reducing the Viscosity of Crude Oil by Pulsed Electric or Magnetic
Field"
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/sample.cgi/enfuem/2006/20/i05/html/ef060072x.html

This is a Wikipedia article on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrorheological_fluid

I notice that Tao's group has used a diesel Mercedes-Benz as their
test subject. Why not a petrol engined Chevrolet sedan? It seems to me
that the planet-saving potential of his magic device would be
maximised in the consumer car market.

The news article states that ...

"Temple [University] has applied for a patent on this technology,
which has been licensed to California-based Save The World Air Inc.,
an environmentally conscientious enterprise focused on the design,
development, and commercialization of revolutionary technologies
targeted at reducing emissions from internal combustion engines."

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Re: Using electric field to thin fuel

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Heating it up will achieve the same result ;-)

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Because it doesn't work!  Listen, it is quite simple.  In a modern petrol
engine meeting stringent emission standards the fuel system is calibrated by
mass and not volume.  Unless you are claiming this device changes the mass
of the fuel molecules then it cannot work.  We also have oxygen sensors in
the exhaust system to finely calibrate the whole process. Diesel engines are
just about there as well.

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Applying for a patent does not necessarily mean the thing works.

Regardless of the viscosity of petrol it is optimally at 14.7:1 by mass.
Some manufacturers run leaner but it tops out at approximately 16:1.  So if
anyone can convince me that changing viscosity of fuel in a modern engine
achieves something then please go ahead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio for some light reading

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BTW I was involved (many years ago) looking at testing procedures with water
injection on petrol engines.  Some very good results were gained but only
after very un-ordinary testing on a dyno.  e.g humidity levels at near zero
and the engine running at extreme temperatures.  When tested under normal
conditions it actually made things worse!  So horses (horespowers) for
courses ;-)  So in this testing where they achieved these results I would
have liked to have seen it for myself because *IF* they actually achieved it
then I would like to have seen how they cooked the results ;-)


Cheers TT forever sceptical ;-)



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