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Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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Actually I think (in the USA) you do have rights to do a certain amount of
hacking and disassembling regardless of what the shrinkwrap license might
suggest, but I agree it's largely a grey area.

I'm willing to bet you that plenty of the big guys like Agilent, Tek, and
LeCroy have completely taken apart, analyzed, and disassembled as much
hardware and software as they could manage of their competitors' gear -- and
then incorporated any hardware AND SOFTWARE improvements they found into their
own kit.  (All with one of the company lawyers around to make sure it was done
legally, though.)

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HP/Agilent and Tek have were using simple-minded-but-effective encryption
already 20+ years ago to control access to software years in their gear...

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Agreed.

---Joel


Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:00:07 -0400, Phil Hobbs

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This last situation is one that _developed_ in the US due to
a law suit (or several) that took place around the time when
VisiCalc was a "big deal" in and around 1980.  Prior to this
time, software was bought and sold and the older US laws
regarding rights followed that legal lagacy.  If you BUY the
software, you can loan it to others, etc.  What happened is
that some software manufacturers (using the term, loosely)
decided that they didn't want that legal legacy and tried
hard to pony up some "new idea."  That new idea was selling
licenses to use, not direct ownership.  This really didn't
have a lot of legal history to it and there was a debate as
to whether or not one could "sell" a product over the
counter, on a wide spread basis.

(By this, I mean, sold just like a hammer is and NOT like the
usual 'licence to use' was before, which was strictly done
between two eyes-open parties who represented themselves on a
professional and fully informed basis and wrote a contract
which was duly signed by appropriate authorities.  Up to that
time, there were licenses... yes.  But they were strictly
done on a written contract basis and done 1-on-1.  This was
new in the sense that merely "opening" a package was to be
taken as a fully-informed legal contract.  Which is a very
different thing.)

A court (in my opinion, wrongly) decided this issue and
opened the door that we now find ourselves completely on the
other side of.

Hardware is as it always was, though.  Software went through
a dimensional door and we are now in another universe.

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Yes.


I think this is a really interesting topic and I'm glad there
are different opinions on it.  It makes for some fun.  I will
read the arguments, but I'm sure like most of us over the age
of 40 we aren't likely to make profound changes in our
hard-won opinions.  But it will be intriguing to see if
someone does come up with a solid argument that changes an
opinion here or there.

Jon

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E



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It all started with Microsoft. They licensed MS DOS instead of selling it to
IBM. This allowed MS to get a fee for every IBM computer sold with MS DOS on
it. Initially MS was going to sale DOS to IBM but Gates changed his mind
after the fact(not quite sure how it happened) because he did not want to
give the source code to IBM.

In a perfectly ethical world there would be no such licensing issues. If you
wanted the software you brought it outright and would not sale it or modify
it to make a profit from other peoples work. Because software is not
tangible there is nothing to stop someone from duplicating it and hence it
is quite easy to get around having to pay the owner for it. This has nothing
to do with software but with the societies ethics. The fact that piracy is
widespread simply tells us that our moral standard has drastically changed
for the worse.

"A hard days work for a hard day's pay" has been replaced with "I'll do
anything for money and fuck everyone else!"


Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E



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**Not even close. The real con was the Intel 486SX. It was a 486 chip, with
a deliberately disabled maths co-processor.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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And this is where John's logic really does break down as said in another
post. By John's logic Rigol have deprived the ADC makers of revenue by
buying lower specified ADCs and clocking them faster than they are rated.
John argues that this is OK because it's not illegal. But the thrust of his
argument is that somehow hacking a 50MHz scope 'deprives' Rigol of revenue,
and since hacking per se is not illegal  this simply amounts to a moral
argument that it is somehow wrong. If that is the case then so is
overclocking ADCs. If it is OK to overclock an ADC, why is it not OK for a
user who has bought a 50MHz version to privately 'overclock' it to 100MHz by
making a firmware tweek or hardware mod? In both cases the results are not
guaranteed anyway.

Mark.



Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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"Land of the Free" criminalises lots of things. The punters must be
ripped off by corporate excess at every turn - just look at the DMCA as
an example of how your congress critters are in hock to big business.

The Sony BMG CD rootkit fiasco in 2005 was a particularly nasty example
of this with the boot on the other foot.
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Even as an originator of IP I find it difficult to have much sympathy
for Rigol here when they clearly made no effort to cover their tracks in
the firmware. It would only have taken an MD5 or CRC of the serial
number XORred with a bit pattern known only to them to prevent hackers.

If you can upgrade it by sending it a new model number then why not?

They won't easily stop hardware mods though. Engineers tweaking
commercially available products by swapping out weak components to
improve or make them more reliable has been going on since the year dot.
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Indeed. And that is why you should not make it trivial to hack.

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However, it does make the Rigol DS1052E a very attractive proposition
for the moment. UK/Oz attitudes to hacking kit are somewhat more relaxed
than in the US. Almost all DVD players here are available in MultiRegion
hacked form and even NASA brings its DVD kit to London to be doctored.
Region locked players do not sell particularly well to UK film buffs.
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You may as well patch them for 100MHz bandwidth then. Send Rigol the
price difference or whatever you think it is worth if your conscience
bothers you.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:47:27 +0100, Martin Brown

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You don't favor copyrights or legal protection for intellectual
property? If you spent years writing a book or a symphony or
developing a product that was mostly firmware, you wouldn't mind if
people copied it and sold cheap knockoffs?

There is an argument against copyrights and patents, but it would
change a lot of things.

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Yes. Their mistake was making it too easy.

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It looks as if hardware-hacking the varicap bandwidth limiter is
legal, but doing it through the serial port may be a crime in the US.

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Agreed. Hackers are amazingly inventive.

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I don't intend to hack any of them and I never steal IP. I hope that
people won't hack my products and steal my engineering investment.

And 50 MHz is a good place for a bench scope, clear of a lot of FM and
TV crud. The Rigol looks great at 50 MHz, but noisy and ringy at 100.

John


Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E



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As long as we have actors, writers, filmakers, musicians, etc that
each make more money in a year than the people lurking this newsgroup
make in a lifetime the current system seems to be working just fine
for them.

If your 'product' is good people are willing to pay for it. If your
product sucks and no-one is willing to pay for it then you better find
another job. The way I look at it is that people who copy your
software would not have bought it in the first place.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
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Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:58:10 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel)
wrote:

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Does that mean you are willing to copy software, purchased by yourself
or others, in violation of a license agreement? And that your
willingness depends on your opinion of the quality of the product?

John



Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E



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Judging the way the world works it doesn't seem to matter.

Anyway I don't give out copies of software to others. Although I
always use cracked versions because I don't want to be mess around
with dongles and license servers. If there is no cracked copy
available I don't buy the software package. The availability of a
cracked copy is also a measure whether its worth the money or not.
Furthermore I try to use open-source software as much as possible (and
contribute as a payment).

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
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Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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I didn't say that at all. I am in favour of protection of genuine novel
inventions and copyright on creative works. I am absolutely opposed to
the idiotic USPTO granting patents on mathematical identities and
blindingly obvious prior art in the software field.

Remember I originate mostly software. And that is far more easily copied
by the unscrupulous since it is designed to run on a generic computer.
These days mostly PCs but I have done stuff in the past that ran on
everything from a humble Z80 (with a lot of paging) to a CrayXMP.
Strange thing was we learnt a few new tricks with every compiler the
code was compiled on. The Z80 compiler was very strict and minimalist.
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Your DMCA is an insane piece of legislation intended to pander to the
rip-off merchants in Hollywood and US music industry. ISTR analogue
playback of DVDs in the US is deliberately hobbled to satisfy them.
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Exactly. Got it in one.
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More fool the US legislators. The customer must always be ripped off.
Are you seriously claiming that you think the DCMA is good legislation?

The hardware is clearly capable of 100MHz operation and a trivial
command sequence will enable it (or reversibly degrade the bandwidth).
Cutting a track and a quick hardware mod would also do the job.

I don't see that changing a few bytes in NV ram using undocumented
commands is any different to swapping out the front end transistors or
whatever other tricks were done on some of the old analogue scopes to
soup them up. What about using some of the undocumented hardware
features of the profiling instructions on my Intel PCs. No doubt you
would say that infringes the DMCA since I don't have Intels blessing.
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Serious point here. I don't mind registering and binding the licence key
to the MAC address of one PC and/or owners name. That is pretty much
what I do. Once it is installed I cannot stop them giving it away, but I
can tell if I ever see an illicit copy who gave it away. This is usually
sufficient to discourage all but the most untrustworthy characters. Most
people are basically honest but require a bit of encouragement.

I rather like the game industry copy protection where an illicit cloned
game would play OK for 5 or 10 minutes and then have gravity decrease to
zero or mutate the laws of physics in some other way. Enough time to get
people hooked on the gameplay but still needing to buy a copy.

I absolutely hate paranoid invasive security measures like dongles on
parallel ports I no longer have that only work on slow machines or
require the DVD inserted every 10th use. These generally only
inconvenience genuine purchasers without putting up that much resistance
to a concerted attack by professional pirates. The Chessmaster series of
programs is a good example of this daft insert the CD method and it is
protecting something that retails for about 10.

If you have ever been in the Far East you will know what I mean about
knock-off software being everywhere (and often laden with malware).

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You never knowingly steal IP. You have no way of telling when the slimy
fat lawyers from Patent Carpet Baggers Inc will come knocking and demand
that you pay a huge ransom for infringing their US patent on "whatever".
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But if you happened to want to use it at 100MHz then enabling that
feature would be useful. In the UK 85MHz bandwidth would be OK.

Waveforms with sharp rise times always look worse at higher bandwidth.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 09:14:44 +0100, Martin Brown

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Autodesk's lawyers did attack us for having illicit copies of Autocad,
and we were obliged to prove that we didn't. It was a nuisance, but I
bet it cost them much, much more than it cost us. We did have one copy
of the student version on premises (left behind by an intern) and they
demanded we do something or other about that. I offered to sell it
back to them.

Of course we never bought another Autodesk product, and never will.

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Not on my 11801, at 20 GHz!

John


Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


JL > Of course we never bought another Autodesk product, and never
will.

Is there an alternative product that can touch it?

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E



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Solidworks.

John