Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E - Page 11

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Re: Conroy - Public Enemy #1 - Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E



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Is that what you have done ?







Re: Conroy - Public Enemy #1 - Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E



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Among other things, yes.

John



Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E

"Fred Abse"
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** It is a pile of absolute bollocks.

Dave has simply exposed a scam and there is nothing Rigol can do legally.



.....  Phil






Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E



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Look at Microsoft and Wordperfect. These companies became huge because
of people copying their software. The same can happen to Rigol.
Hobbyists buy their 50MHz scopes to hack them. Their bosses just buy
the 100MHz version so the warranty is not voided. This way Rigol sells
two scopes instead of zero.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
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Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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If you spend years writing a technical book and you expect to get back
even minimum wage for your effort, you're cracked.  If you spend years
writing a work of fiction and expect to sell it _at all_, then unless
you're an established author, you're cracked.

If I don't think that there are more photocopied versions of _my_ book
in China than there are paid-for copies, even at the ridiculously low
rates they charge for them over there, then _I'm_ cracked.

Perhaps you've been asleep for a few decades.  Read this, it'll help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman .

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
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Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:01:39 -0700, John Larkin

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I sincerely doubt that.  I doubt even you could.  Besides, I
think you've made an excellent point that the unit works well
as designed and doesn't work for your needs nearly so well,
hacked.  Other people like you will choose units that meet
needs well and Rigol will be just fine.

But let me make an argument to the other side, just for
grins.  Professionals like you will do what is in your own
interests and, if you are correct, hacking it doesn't make it
much better so they won't bother.  Besides, it works great as
a 50MHz unit as it should.  The niche of people who will
modify the unit _rather_ than buy something that really does
do 100MHz well will be those who simply cannot afford the
higher priced spread, anyway.  So they aren't really in the
1102E market to begin with.  So Rigol will actually benefit
by getting the money that is "on the table" from those who
cannot really afford much more but decide __now__ to buy the
lower cost Rigol unit because they can hack it for a small
now-perceived extra benefit to them.  Hobbyists, for the most
part, I'd suspect.  That might help Rigol, rather than hurt
them.  Professionals need stuff they can rely upon, anyway,
and support when things need repair under warranty.

besides, it's not Dave's job to pimp their interests, anyway.
Rigol can take care of themselves, just fine.

Jon

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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Hacking your own property is both legally and morally fine. Telling the
world how to do it is more of a grey area but this is only one case of
many. Using that information to buy 50MHz units and sell them on as
100MHz one would probably be a crime.

Just because the US has draconian laws on the subject doesn't mean that
those of us who live in saner parts of the world should have to comply

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Certainly it may affect the sales of their more expensive unit, but, if
they have any sense, they will just drop the 50MHz unit and sell the
100MHz on for the same price or a few dollars more and blitz the market.

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


 >
 > It's also very dishonest and goes to show why humanity will never
make it
 > very far. People like Larkin are too arrogant to understand this.
Do you
 > think people would buy their products if they knew that the only
difference
 > between the low end and high end versions is the price? At the very
least
 > they could have added some true functional improvement that made it
 > justifiable but simply changing the model number doesn't justify a
40% price
 > increase.

What is dishonest about it? You buy a product to do a job and it's
worth a price to you. You want more bells and whistles, you pay for
them. If they're in there already, how is that dishonest? I think is
smart engineering. I never understand why it's OK for me to get the
highest price when I sell something but it's 'bad' and 'greedy' if a
company does the same thing. Don't tell me you sold you house to the
lowest offer -- or maybe you did.

GB2%

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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Destroying a market isn't usually a good way to make money in the long
run.

And it's easily possible that Rigol saves a boatload of money by having
only one assembly number to design, code, build, and test.  Remember
that (as Dave discovered earlier) they're actually overclocking the ADCs
on the 100 MHz model--so one can argue it's really a 50 MHz scope that
Rigol themselves hacked into a 100 MHz one.

Companies have been selling crippleware forever--the earliest example I
know of was the 6 MHz IBM PC-AT.  You changed the crystal and one other
thing that I forget, and suddenly you had a blistering fast 8 MHz AT!
(Cooler than the coolest thing ever, no?)  There were similar howls of
outrage over that one.


The moral question is actually an interesting one, I think, and the
different views seem to hinge on what people think they're buying, and
whether a hardware/software combination is more like hardware (which you
can hack up as you like) or software (which has a license agreement
you're bound by).

I don't think it's tenable to say that Rigol is dishonest when they sell
two models that differ only in firmware, and the difference in the front
ends.  For instance, nobody thinks it's morally repugnant for Intel to
sell different speed grades of microprocessor which actually come from
the same wafer, right?  That's because we fantasize that the slow-spec
ones all failed at speed sort--which is far from true, because otherwise
the available supply of the slow version would evaporate as the process
improved.  Still, no big outrage there--overclockers can have fun, the
rest of us ignore the issue.

We also don't mind Microsoft selling a 60 cent DVD full of software,
because that's what we expect.  (Some of us grumble, but nearly everyone
is willing to pay.)

It's where these hardware/software chimaeras come in that we don't have
an agreed model for what is fair and what isn't.

I'm not meaning to be a Dutch uncle here--I don't think I know the full
answer myself--but it's an interesting question.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs









--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
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Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:38:34 -0400, Phil Hobbs

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Rigol may well be culling assembled scopes, picking the best ones to
sell as the 100 MHz versions.

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The IBM 1401 has about a dozen cards that slowed it down, things like
homing disk heads on every seek. A 1410 cost more and didn't have this
stuff.

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Yes. What's a fair price for IP that costs nothing to manufacture?

John


Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


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<snip>
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Like the Intel MPU case, sure.  And in that situation, one can argue
that slowing down the front end to match the capabilities of the slower
ADCs is a good thing for customers--you don't pay the 3 dB noise penalty
for bandwidth you can't use.  All for an extra 20 cents worth of parts.

<snip>
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Same as the fair price for anything else--i.e. what a willing buyer will
pay in a free market.  (There are occasions when it's morally wrong to
charge the 'fair' price so defined, e.g. cornering the market in food
during a famine or other nasty monopoly behaviour--but it's a real
stretch to put Rigol in _that_ category.)

It's certainly a good lesson in customer relations, though--what was
that about no good deed going unpunished?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs





--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
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Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E



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But that costs a lot to develop.

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E



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Development costs, amortized over the quantity of product sold, plus
overhead and profit.

--
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence
over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
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Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E



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Ok, you've defined profit, but I'll ask Larkin's question again.  What's a
fair price for IP that costs nothing to manufacture?

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E



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No, I defined pricing, not profit,

--
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence
over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
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Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E



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Not really (pricing is what the market will bear). You still didn't answer his
question, in any case.

Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E


On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 15:58:51 -0500, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

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What people are willing to pay, of course.

If you had a rusty VW beetle up on blocks in your back yard, and
somebody offered you $200 for it, and somebody else offered you
$24,000, would you sell it to the $200 guy because that's a fair
price?

John


Re: Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E