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Re: Tingles from DVD players



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But, if the device is double insulated, then wont the exposed frames
be doubly isolated from the mains earth? IS this not why you get the
tingle? the whole frame is floating about mains earth because it is
not connected to mains earth.

Or perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps there is a secret earth connection to
double insultated gear that the manufacturers just accidently forgot
to tell people about. Perhaps the manufacturers decided to make you
mains earth magically float up. Or perhpas they just built in some
electric shocking mechanism for fun.



I remember daealing with a sparky when i was a 1st year apprentice. He
just couldn't figure out why, that if i was not connected to mains
earth or to neutral i could touch active and not get electrocuted. I
even gave him personal proof once. I then got a multimeter and put one
probe in active, and the other in the air, and asked him why it did
not give any significant reading, until i stuck the other probe in
neutral or earth. He still did not get it.

It all stemmed from the discussion of the use of isolation
transformers..

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Re: Tingles from DVD players


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To be honest, I hadn't considered the possibility that the serial port might
be isolated from the circuitry inside the laptop.

this one isn't.

Bye.
   Jasen

Re: Tingles from DVD players



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Read what i stated.
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SO are you suggesting that your laptop connects the serial port to
mains earth?

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Re: Tingles from DVD players



"The Real Andy"

" Jasen Bleatts"

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**  Watch out -  Andy.

Jasen thinks a glass of sheep dip is a aphrodisiac.





......   Phil



Re: Tingles from DVD players


On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 00:21:18 +1100, "Phil Allison"

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It is a lost cause, some get it, some dont.

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Re: Tingles from DVD players


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typically it will, but there's no requirement.

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(I meant this one isn't isolated from the rest of the laptop)

this one connects it to the chassis, and the laplink cable connects
it to the pc which is earthed.

Bye.
   Jasen

Re: Tingles from DVD players



"Jasen Betts"  =  just another anencephalic Kiwi

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** Read the whole thread  -   FUCKWIT  !


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** My copy of  AS 3100  says so as well.

" It will be apparent that double-insulated appliance built in accordance
with these principles must not be earthed."

It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is compulsory.



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**  If you actually ever learn to read one day,  Jasen, it will be a
miracle.

" Earthed"  = " mains earthed"  = connected to the AC ground via a standard
3 pin plug and 3 pin outlet.




.......  Phil



Re: Tingles from DVD players


On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:57:58 +1100, "Phil Allison"

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snip



In a reply to my post just yesterday you stated

---------------------------------
** The warning notice is not compulsory.
"Only the use of the  "double square" symbol or the words "Double
Insulated" are. "
---------------------------------

AS/NZS 3100 is not the applicable standard for domestic entertainment
equipment. It is used for equipment that does not have a specific
standard.

AS/NZS 60065:2000
Audio, video and similar electronic
apparatus-Safety requirements  
(IEC 60065:1998 MOD)

is the appropriate standard for this discussion.


snip
--
Regards
Malcolm
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Re: Tingles from DVD players



"Malcolm Moore"

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**  So ?


You made NO reply to the other answers I so thoughtfully gave you.


Class 2 construction appliances are inherently much safer than class 1
types.

What users do that  COMPROMISES that additional safety is beyond the control
of makers or authorities.

The issue is one of legal liability on the part of someone who elects to
earth a class 2 item .

In some cases, doing that would be equivalent to murder.




........  Phil




Re: Tingles from DVD players


On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 14:02:29 +1100, "Phil Allison"

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So you have contradicted yourself in quoting from the Standard you are
relying upon. Hardly the tactic to use to convince people of your
position on this matter.

Your use of the title AS 3100 perhaps indicates you are relying on an
old version, it has been AS/NZS 3100 since at least 2002 when the
ccurrent version was promulgated.

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I have rectified this in another post.

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No. The issue is one of legal liability on the part of someone who
elects to miswire the plug on a Class 1 item, with phase and earth
swapped, and then doesn't do required testing before it is placed in
service.  The equipment would be just as dangerous if it were used
stand alone.

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In most jurisdictions that would be manslaughter or culpable homicide
or similar. Still a serious charge.

--
Regards
Malcolm
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Re: Tingles from DVD players


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you explained how connecting a class two appliance to a live conductor could
be dangerous, I didn't see any explanation of how earthing the appliance was
bad. (except earth loops)

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that seems odd, perhaps because it's taken out of context.

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it must be wrong then... I see many devices with the double squares but no
"do not earth"

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I know how to read an ohmmeter and it tells me the outer conductor of the
anterena socket is conneted to the earth pin on the mains lead.

If you don't believe me you can come over here aand measure it or dig up a
schematic somewhere, the K9 was once quite common.

Bye.
   Jasen

Re: Tingles from DVD players



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} Newsgroups: aus.electronics
} Subject: Re: Tingles from DVD players
} Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 12:35:28 +1100

...

} ** Imagine a hi-fi system with every item in it class 2  - so there is no AC
} ground to the metalwork.
}
} Next, an item is added to the system, ie a nice old valve tuner just bought
} from Ebay but with no AC plug.
}
} Next, the user inadvertently wires up the new plug wrongly with active and
} earth reversed and makes all the connections.
}
} The hi-fi system will still work just as before ( but not the tuner) but
} with ALL the metalwork, connecting leads and even the loud speakers now
} LIVE  !!!
}
} In countries with 240 volt AC power, this is a FATAL  accident scenario
} !!!!

There you go "class two appliance connected to a live conductor"
(an incorrectly wired class one appliance) are you going to argue that
the connectors on it aren't live conductors?

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In that case there's an awful lot of non-compliant equipment out there.

Bye.
   Jasen

Re: Tingles from DVD players



"Jasen Bleatts"  =   Kiwi  anencephalic
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** What an illiterate  IDIOT you are -  Jasen  !!

The user in MY EXAMPLE connected the various, ground linked class 2
appliances in his audio system to the metalwork of a class 1 item by simply
*plugging the audio and leads in*  -   thereby connecting the previously non
earthed class 2 system to the " supply earth".

The defective wiring of a *single class 1 item*  ( it does not matter a
HOOT  how it got that way) then rendered an entire system live and LETHAL.



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**  Your raving mad opinion  -  not mine.




.......   Phil



Re: Tingles from DVD players


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He was connecting them to a live conductor. he may have considered it to be
"supply earth" but it wasn't.

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Is that not an example of it being bad to connect the inputs of a Class 2
device to a live conductor. ?

the faulty device would be potentially lethal without conductive connections
to other equipment.

if there were two class one items in the setup the fault would have been
detected.

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are you saying that something compulsory isn't required for compliance?
or that for some reason all the other posters who've posted on this subject
have an atypical collection of class 2 devices in that practically none of
the bear the legend "do not earth"

Bye.
   Jasen

Re: Tingles from DVD players



"Jasen Bleatts"

=  New Zealand's very Worst.



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**  By accident  -    F U C K W I T  !!!!!!


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**  I am not saying what I did not say.

 Go away   -   Jasen.

 Eat a packet of rat poison   -   Jasen.

 Eat two.






........  Phil



Re: Tingles from DVD players


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by "almost" do you mean slightly more or slightly less? I suspect less.


  Class 1 is of benefit in high power appliances like toasters,
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mostly because the requirements for double- or reinforced-insulation
become difficult, if not impossible.

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I was referring to 50/60Hz transformers, although did not specifically
say so. Its the bees knees for smps transformers.

are you aware of any triple-insulated foils?

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and it avoids all that creepage, allowing lower leakage designs.

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Cheers
Terry

Re: Tingles from DVD players


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I haven't seen any (yet) that aren't of wrapped and folded insulation lay-up.

The mandrel test for flexibility and adherence would pretty much exclude the
use of other than round cross-sections in order to pass the 6 kV dielectric
strength test (based on my experience to date, the edge of the foil would
damage the layer(s) of extruded or spiral wrpped insulation).

Now I have said this, I will probably see one tomorrow :-)

High current devices using foil windings usually have very bulky concentric
windings, since the insulation layup for each layer is sometimes as thick or
thicker than the foil.  Must be a right bugger to make them to even
semi-precise tolerances.



Re: Tingles from DVD players


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Hi David,

I have used pre-fabricated kapton-wrapped foils, with IIRC 25um of
Kapton. These were incompletely wrapped - the insulation came in some
6mm on either side, thereby accomplishing the necessary creepages. I
used TIW for the primary. AIUI the trick with mfg these foils is to
treat the edges.... on a similar note, I built a 120A forward converter
(I forget Vout) for electroplating at Uni, and made the foil myself -
with scissors. I wrapped it with fiberglass tape, and man did the shitty
edges cause me grief. I had no real idea of what I was doing though, and
it took a long time to realise the secondary was shorted, and why. yay
for CMC though; despite being hand built on veroboard, no fires.

good stuff on the standards. There's not much point replying to Phil,
he's wrong and being abusive because you proved it quite conclusively.

Cheers
Terry

Re: For Pain Relief



**  Beware  !!!!

The above halfwit is a female impersonator from northern Tasmania

Goes by the handle "Ayn Marx ".

Might as well be Groucho Marx  !!!


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** ROTFL  !!

A very recently set up chat room for fuckwit audiophools,  moderated by
control freaks &  psychopaths  !!

Go for it dudes  ......




.......   Phil



Re: For Pain Relief

If anyone wants to avoid all the agro here you're welcome over on Oz
 Hi-Fi & HT :-            http://forum.aushifi.com /

.........a moderated forum that allows the posting of graphics, circuit

 diagrams etc and avoids that flame wars that are destroying so many
 newsgroups.


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