Tingles from DVD players

I might as well add my $0.02 worth here too.

This is a well known and allowed for condition in safety standards. It is referred to as "touch current" and was previosuly referred to as leakage current. The safe limit for touch current in Class 2 devices is 0.25 mA and this lies within the perception range for some people. Touch current is likely due to the current passing through small value capacitors connected between the chassis and the primary power circuits. This is usually for ESD (electro-static discharge) compatibility in the case of audio/video equipment.

There is no rule in the safety or wiring standards that prevents you from doing so, but introducing an earth is not a good idea since it may cause unintended earth loop currents to flow through other circuits. This can lead to humm and noise, etc.

Among other reasons, it also has to do with cost, but not as you might imagine. By floating the chassis there is no need to use audio baluns or isolating transformers in the input and output interconnection stages to remove extraneous circulating supply currents or to provide electrical safety.

I read some of the other replies and would also like to add the following.

  1. There is no prohibition on interconection of Class 1 and Class 2 equipment. The only safety related condition is that any earthing required for safety of the Class 1 device is maintained at the desired level. Which is 1.6 times the rated current of an inherent protective device (eg. internal fusing).
  2. Equipment that was marked "Do Not Earth" was often done so because the internal circuitry was "live" and separated from accessible conductive parts by double/reinforced insulation. Earthing the internal circuitry would be potentially hazardous in this case.

More commonly the "do not earth" instruction is for when the equipment is supplied to countries that do not have the MEN (TNC-S) mains supply wiring scheme. In those countries there is a separate earthing terminal or bonding point on the equipment chassis, and more often than not, no mains plug is supplied on the cord. Equipment that is to be earthed has a plug added, and the chassis bonded to earth at the time of installation. For floating chassis devices the do not earth instruction is to specifically draw attention to not to bond to earth.

  1. For small A/V and ITE, making Class 2 equipment costs almost the same as Class 1 equipment. Class 1 is of benefit in high power appliances like toasters, ovens, etc.
  2. Class 2 construction does not mean double insulation. Double insulation may be a type of Class 2 construction but reinforced insulation is now more common.
  3. Someone mentioned triple insulated wire is not common. It is now very common, being the preferred method to construct very small footprint concentric wound transformers in smal SMPSUs. The majority of mobile phone power supplies I have examined (say, since 2000) use triple insulated wire as the secondary winding. This way the static screen and the primary can be conductively coupled, doing away with the additional layers of insulation that would otherwise be needed.

Most of the above can be found in AS/NZS 60065 and/or AS/NZS 60950-1

Reply to
David, not to be confused with
Loading thread data ...

"David, not to be confused with the other Davids."

** Of course there is !!

A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed or it ceases to be one.

** There is.

A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed.

** You are just making this crazy drivel up.

The earthing requirements for a class 1 appliance relate to the copper cross section of the earth wire used, ie must not be not less than 1 sq mm. ( AS3100)

** Plenty of class 2 items are labelled "Do Not Earth" where no such thing existed.

( snip more irrelevant drivel )

** Correct - but the names have become synonyms as far as categorising an appliance is concerned.

....... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

by "almost" do you mean slightly more or slightly less? I suspect less.

Class 1 is of benefit in high power appliances like toasters,

mostly because the requirements for double- or reinforced-insulation become difficult, if not impossible.

I was referring to 50/60Hz transformers, although did not specifically say so. Its the bees knees for smps transformers.

are you aware of any triple-insulated foils?

and it avoids all that creepage, allowing lower leakage designs.

Cheers Terry

Reply to
Terry Given

the prohibition on earthing class 2 appliances does not relate to consumers plugging them into class 1 appliances, but to technical personnel adding 3-pin plugs/wires.

as long as nobody fiddles with the mains connection, one is free to earth as many inputs/outputs as one wishes.

Of course hooking the jacket of your video out RCA connector to, say, Phase would be a fairly dangerous thing to do, but then so is poking a knife into a toaster while its operating.

Reply to
Terry Given

"Terry Given"

** Yawn .......

A safety risk is created by so doing - possibly a very serious one.

....... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

You are correct for a transformer based power supply device such as a plug-pack, but this is not necessarily the case for other products. The deliniation between Class 1 and Class 2 is becoming very grey. Whereas AS3108 and AS/NZS61558-1 say any transformer that has an earth terminal must be classified as Class 1 other standards do not.

Definition and references below from AS/NZS60950-1, since I happen to be using it at the moment. Note the use of earthing is not prohibited, just that the safety strategy of the design must not rely on the protective earth. This standard might/is be used for a switch mode PSU plug-pack.

===== "COPYRIGHT"

1.2.4.2 CLASS II EQUIPMENT: Equipment in which protection against electric shock does not rely on BASIC INSULATION only,but in which additional safety precautions,such as DOUBLE INSULATION or REINFORCED INSULATION are provided,there being no reliance on protective earthing. =====

There have been many changes since the old AS3108 and AS3100 type standards existed as the sole point of reference. None of those standards took into account EMC filtering or stray currents due to SMPSU, etc. With the more modern standards you can certainly use Class 2 construction, with functional (not protective) earthing. Note, connecting an earth does not automatically make it Class 1 in this standard.

If you want to split hairs on the issue over the Class 2 box-in-box marking, perhaps I should of said before to scatch off the symbol. It is then functionally earthed Class 2 construction. It can only be truly Class 1 if the earthing is protective. There is no marking to define these products (yet). The mis-wiring of plugs etc is not a factor taken into consideration.

Here is a reference from the same standard:

====== "COPYRIGHT"

2.6.2 Functional earthing If FUNCTIONAL EARTHING of accessible or other conductive parts is necessary,all of the following apply to the FUNCTIONAL EARTHING circuit:

- the FUNCTIONAL EARTHING circuit shall be separated from parts at HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES in the equipment by either: .DOUBLE INSULATION or REINFORCED INSULATION or . a protectively earthed screen or another protectively earthed conductive part, separated from parts at HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES by at least BASIC INSULATION and

- it is permitted to connect the FUNCTIONAL EARTHING circuit to a protective earth terminal or to a PROTECTIVE BONDING CONDUCTOR and

Reply to
David, not to be confused with

I haven't seen any (yet) that aren't of wrapped and folded insulation lay-up.

The mandrel test for flexibility and adherence would pretty much exclude the use of other than round cross-sections in order to pass the 6 kV dielectric strength test (based on my experience to date, the edge of the foil would damage the layer(s) of extruded or spiral wrpped insulation).

Now I have said this, I will probably see one tomorrow :-)

High current devices using foil windings usually have very bulky concentric windings, since the insulation layup for each layer is sometimes as thick or thicker than the foil. Must be a right bugger to make them to even semi-precise tolerances.

Reply to
David, not to be confused with

"David, the pedantic FUCKWIT one.

** " No reliance " = NO connection to the AC supply earth system.

WAKE UP FUCKHEAD:

AS/NZ standards are for engineers and installers to heed.

The issue here relates to *ordinary consumers* !!!

Consumers are neither aware of nor need to follow published standards.

The law of **negligence** certainly applies to them though.

** Blah, blah, blah - same as I said.

Piss off - you damn IDIOT.

...... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

Hi David,

I have used pre-fabricated kapton-wrapped foils, with IIRC 25um of Kapton. These were incompletely wrapped - the insulation came in some

6mm on either side, thereby accomplishing the necessary creepages. I used TIW for the primary. AIUI the trick with mfg these foils is to treat the edges.... on a similar note, I built a 120A forward converter (I forget Vout) for electroplating at Uni, and made the foil myself - with scissors. I wrapped it with fiberglass tape, and man did the shitty edges cause me grief. I had no real idea of what I was doing though, and it took a long time to realise the secondary was shorted, and why. yay for CMC though; despite being hand built on veroboard, no fires.

good stuff on the standards. There's not much point replying to Phil, he's wrong and being abusive because you proved it quite conclusively.

Cheers Terry

Reply to
Terry Given

Well, you'd think Toaster Boi would know about that one. :P

Reply to
Alan Rutlidge

Shouldn't that read "David.......... won" ?

Phil lost....

Reply to
Alan Rutlidge

And that would be a problem how?

says you...

what's the deal with laplink cables ?

and connecting what's that bad thing that going to happen by connecting my VCR and DVD player to my ancient TV (Phillips K9ii) which has an eathed antenna connector. and my junk CD player (CD-rom drive in an old apple external 5.25" enclosure with RCA sockets on the back) (earthed) is connected to my cheap sterio.

--

Bye.
   Jasen
Reply to
Jasen Betts
** Beware !!!!

The above halfwit is a female impersonator from northern Tasmania

Goes by the handle "Ayn Marx ".

Might as well be Groucho Marx !!!

** ROTFL !!

A very recently set up chat room for f****it audiophools, moderated by control freaks & psychopaths !!

Go for it dudes ......

....... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

If anyone wants to avoid all the agro here you're welcome over on Oz Hi-Fi & HT :-

formatting link

.........a moderated forum that allows the posting of graphics, circuit

diagrams etc and avoids that flame wars that are destroying so many newsgroups.

Reply to
mdhjwh
** Beware !!!!

The above halfwit is a female impersonator from northern Tasmania

Goes by the handle "Ayn Marx ".

Might as well be Groucho Marx !!!

** ROTFL !!

A very recently set up chat room for f****it audiophools, moderated by control freaks & psychopaths !!

Go for it dudes ......

....... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

If anyone wants to avoid all the agro here you're welcome over on Oz Hi-Fi & HT :-

formatting link
.........a moderated forum that allows the posting of graphics, circuit diagrams etc and avoids that flame wars that are destroying so many newsgroups.

Reply to
mdhjwh
** Beware !!!!

The above halfwit is a female impersonator from northern Tasmania

Goes by the handle "Ayn Marx ".

Might as well be Groucho Marx !!!

** ROTFL !!

A very recently set up chat room for f****it audiophools, moderated by control freaks & psychopaths !!

Go for it dudes ......

....... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

If anyone wants to avoid all the agro here you're welcome over on Oz Hi-Fi & HT :-

formatting link
........................a moderated forum that allows the posting of graphics, circuit diagrams etc and avoids that flame wars that are destroying so many newsgroups.

Reply to
mdhjwh
** Beware !!!!

The above halfwit is a female impersonator from northern Tasmania

Goes by the handle "Ayn Marx ".

Might as well be Groucho Marx !!!

** ROTFL !!

A very recently set up chat room for f****it audiophools, moderated by control freaks & psychopaths !!

Go for it dudes ......

....... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

An interesting news article maybe.

"The dark side of the blogosphere was revealed by a libel action brought by Michael Keith-Smith, a former Conservative party member who stood for Ukip in Portsmouth North at the last election. He said he was moved to sue after a woman with whom he was debating the merits of military action in Iraq began a campaign of name-calling that started by describing him as "lard brain" and culminated in falsely labelling him a "Nazi", a "racist bigot" and a "nonce"."

formatting link

Yeah, I know kill-filing fixes most of the problem!

Reply to
Rob

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.