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Re: Credit card fraud liability
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The problem  I am having is tyrying to cancel a card.  There were
several false charges made on a gasoline credit card (hint:  anglo-
dutch) that I rarely used any more.  The charges were so obviously
false that the card's security people called me about them.  Then a
while later my son's wallet was stolen, in which he had a copy of the
card so he could buy gas for his car.  I called the company, paid off
the balance, and told them to cancel the card.  I am still
getting ,monthly statements with niggling little charges.

Re: Credit card fraud liability
The problem with credit card PIN numbers is that if your credit card
details are stolen/skimmed, or whatever, including your PIN number
then the bank will say YOU are responsible as you must have given the
PIN number to someone.

I absolutely refuse to use a PIN number for a credit card.  If there
is a questionable transaction on my card I want to see a copy of the
merchants receipt and the signature before I will accept the charge.

In the past I have had two "duplicate" charges on a credit card.  Each
time I queried it (by phone) with the bank and was told I would have
to pay the bill in full and then start a dispute process.  Both times
I told them there was no way I would pay the duplicate charge but that
I would pay the bill minus the duplicate charge.  The payments were
accepted (minus the duplicate charge) and then nothing more was heard.
The duplicate charges were both made on the same date as the original
charges and with the same reference numbers.
--
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Re: Credit card fraud liability
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Unfortunately that isn't true as the Cambridge researchers have
demonstrated some of the data paths inside the terminal are not
encrypted and are open to skimming if you can get inside.
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You would never get any groceries in the UK then. Chip & PIN is it now.

Only offline retro places use the old paper trail stuff these days.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Credit card fraud liability
On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:34:36 +0000, Martin Brown

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But the bank will insist that you divulged the PIN number to someone
so you are to blame.
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I always use cash for groceries - certainly wouldn't use a credit card
- plus they are sooooo slow to process!  It really gets me pee'd off
when people buying a few dollars worth of stuff and using a card.  OK
if it's the whole weeks shopping though.
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--
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Re: Credit card fraud liability

[snip]
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In what backwoods location do you live?  Around here any kind of card
is faster than cash.

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Yep.
        
                                        ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
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Re: Credit card fraud liability
On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:23:34 -0700, Jim Thompson

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Western Australia  -  we're two hours and twenty years behind the rest
of Australia!

--
Sell your surplus electronic components at
http://ozcomponents.com
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Re: Credit card fraud liability

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Indeed!
        
                                        ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
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Re: Credit card fraud liability
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Interesting one in the UK where petrol stations had their payment
machines tampered with by rogue engineer(s). Here is a quick precis on
the Register which for obvious reasons doesn't disclose too many details.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/21/pin_tampering_analysis /
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I always use my credit card on sites that I do not trust or have had no
previous dealings with. It is a lot easier to reverse if they don't
deliver the goods than either a cheque or a Western Union transfer.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Credit card fraud liability

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Are you? I'm not saying that credit card providers might not try to
charge you and, of course, it is prudent of them to give the
impression that you may be liable for unauthorized charges. However,
has anybody reading this actually had to pay their credit card
provider for a fraudulent charge?

I have assumed that, after a long wait on hold, a brief, determined
phone call will result in any fraudulent charge being suspended and
then reversed. Am I wrong?

Re: Credit card fraud liability

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I believe that most banks have a policy of writing off the $50 that
they could (by law) hold you responsible for.  It's probably not worth
their time to do the required investigation, and it's probably good PR
for them to say that their credit cards have a "no risk if stolen or
the number is misused" policy.

That's the bank's prerogative, though, not the law.  To be certain of
preserving your rights, you should always report the fraudulent
charge(s) to the bank in writing as soon as you notice them.  The bank
could (if they chose) hold you responsible if you don't do so...
making a phone call is not legally sufficient.

Matters are likely different if the fraudulent charge comes from a
merchant with whom you have a history of doing business (i.e. previous
legitimate charges).  In this case, the bank would probably treat it
as a dispute over a purchase (i.e. quality or non-delivery of goods)
rather than a pure-and-simple theft, and they may require you to jump
through the hoops involved in attempting to resolve the dispute by
working in good faith with the merchant.  (Or, they may just say "OK"
and issue a charge-back against the merchant... I've heard business
owners complain that banks will often do this at the drop of a hat,
without ever speaking with the merchant to find out what their side of
the story is).

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Re: Credit card fraud liability

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It's up to the merchant to prove their side of the story when confronted
by a charge-back.  Trouble for merchants may be lack of signature for
Internet orders, I've been asked to provide extra info by a couple computer
companies -- the guy I spoke with when he phoned had been taken for too
much, needed the info.

Another company simply cancelled the order when I queried the terms of
their credit card extra info requirement.  They seem to feel better off
losing a sale than arguing the point.  Seems stupid to me, but I dunno
how bad it is for the merchant, to favour losing sales over risking bad
transaction.  I think one could fake their extra ID requirements if one
wanted to do the dirty -- but they obviously survive with a policy of
no new customers wanted.

Grant.

Re: Credit card fraud liability

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Or make the claim online.  It's not sufficient to mail the report, either. The
clock won't start until they receive and process the report.  They really want
you to call them so they can cancel the card.  They may require followup
information, like a police report, mailed to them.  If you notice fraudulent
charges on your statement, by law, you're required to notify them by mail, but
it's not usually necessary.  An online report is often enough (followed by any
supporting evidence, like the police report).  CC companies really aren't the
enemy.  ...at least in this.  ;-)

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IME, they issue the charge-back and then require the merchant to prove his
case.  Yes, businesses have a real issue with this but it is a cost of doing
business with CCs.  Without such protections the whole thing falls apart, the
biggest loser being the CC company.  The law actually helps the CC companies
(surprise) in the long run.

Re: Credit card fraud liability
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   The "worst" that happened to me was that the card company discovered
their database had been compromised, and they immediately canceled all
the affected cards and then notified the customers.
   Not one customer lost a penny out of the fiasco, and i think the card
company did not suffer much loss from fraudulent transactions.
   They were really on the ball; heard of cases where it was a true
disaster like an avalanche.

Re: Credit card fraud liability

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Yup!  The charge will go through, you have to fill in a form and wait weeks
for resolution.  Even if you cancel your card on the spot, that fraudulent
charge will go through, and you have to wait weeks for resolution via the
claim form.  

This is the info I got from my bank when I tried to hold/stop a suspected
fraudulent web site charge from going through.

The banks attitude is that any charge on your card will be paid, and your
only option is to register a complaint about that charge -- they refused
to stop a charge from going through.

I was lucky in that email to the site concerned resulted in a refund made
by the site, and they amended their confirmation email text that triggered
my "I've been had" response to the bank.

Trust me, I have had all too many brief and long determined phone calls to
my bank, and am awaiting the outcome of an FOS claim.  But the ombudsman
is run by the banks, for the banks, I don't see any resolution there
either.  

Banks are on the nose -- they invent new charges all the time and are
creaming off way too much for their services.  Apparently with the Govts
blessing :(  The banks cover themselves for CC fraud with the high
interest rate -- they don't care about the individual in potential
short term disaster.  

Grant.

Re: The Return of Popular Electronics Magazine
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 09:15:15 -0800, "Joel Koltner"

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We had our cards tapped twice in the last couple of years.  The second
time was the same card, but after we had new cards with new numbers
issued!  At least once, we were able to trace the purchase to some
small town in Texas, but as far as we know, they never even tried to
track him/her down.  Just took the charges off our bill.

We kept trying to figure out where they got the card the second time.
it wasn't a card we use very often, and out big suspicion was that
Virgin Mobile might have been hacked.  That was one of the two place
that we had actually used that card, and we knew the folks at the
other place we had used it!

Charlie

Re: The Return of Popular Electronics Magazine
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 09:15:15 -0800, "Joel Koltner"

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You're not liable for a dime after you report it missing.  The maximum
liability is $50, even if you don't report it stolen (usually the physical
card isn't stolen so you don't know it's gone).  

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Right.  Most make a big deal out of this, when it really isn't worth
collecting.

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I had that happen on my Chase card too, except that the number on the back was
useless.  The worst part was it was while we were moving down here. Apparently
they didn't like filling two cars at once on one card (really two cards on the
same account).

Re: The Return of Popular Electronics Magazine


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** Dunno about in the USA  -  but here in Aussie the above is not the case.

If you report that a credit card has been stolen and the card has been used
by another during the period before you reported it  - you have problem....

Staff working for the card operators have to make an assessment and be
convinced that the disputed transactions were made without your knowledge or
approval. Plus -  you must make a report of the theft to the police and
provide proof of that fact  -  the police give you a reference number to
quote.

If all is well -  a new card is issued immediately and the missing funds
returned to your account in few weeks.

However, if the staffers are suspicious that you know who carried out the
transactions (ie a friend, flatmate or family member was involved ) then you
are in all kinds of doo doo.  Funds will not be returned, you will not get a
new card and you will need to see a lawyer to get any joy.



....  Phil



Re: The Return of Popular Electronics Magazine

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I suspect laws vary quite widely, around the world.

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Again, in the US the limit of liability is $50, which is almost always waived.

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Of course you must file a police report.  They have no recourse to go after
anyone (including you) until that's done.

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It's immediate, in the US.  Any interest or penalties are returned, as well.
Of course if upon investigation it turns out that you did make the charges the
reversal will be reversed, and perhaps worse.

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Of course.  That's credit fraud, just as using a stolen card is fraud.  If it
was stolen by a flatmate or family member you also have to be a witness
against them in any proceedings.


Re: The Return of Popular Electronics Magazine



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**  Not a matter of law here.

  The card companies simply have rules.


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 ** God you are one annoying prick.


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** Which story do you want us to believe now ?

  Sounds like the USA is just the same as here.


.....  Phil



Re: The Return of Popular Electronics Magazine

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It *is* a matter of law.  

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Rules don't trump laws.

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Why, thank you, Phyllis.
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Which?  You *are* illiterate.

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*OBVIOUSLY* not, Phyllis.  The *LAW* is a $50 limit of liability.  Unless
you're full of shit (likely) it is *not* the same.

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