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Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.



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telephone
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I use the Optus cable network for both Internet and phone access. The
network has battery backup, and continues to function during power
outages. I see no reason the NBN wouldn't be the same.

Sylvia.

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.



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telephone
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No power down optical?  Good and bad, no more lightning issues either,
but there's no reason a basic phone service couldn't be locally battery
backed.  I certainly keep old phone plugged in, next to the cordless,
in case the power's off.

Grant.

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.



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Agreed, you simply do whatever is needed to have a backup system.

Cheers Don...





--
Don McKenzie

Site Map:            http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap
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Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.



:On 7/09/2010 7:04 PM, Ross Herbert wrote:
:
:>
:> Ah, but when you get on the NBN you won't have that reliable plain old
telephone
:> service anymore when mains power fails - unless you buy your own UPS back-up
:> battery... Just pray that it is not an emergency 000 call you want to make.
:>
:
:I use the Optus cable network for both Internet and phone access. The
:network has battery backup, and continues to function during power
:outages. I see no reason the NBN wouldn't be the same.
:
:Sylvia.


A FTTH NBN is a totally passive network, ie. no power is transmitted down the
cable. Every home on the NBN will have an Optical Network Terminal through which
ALL residential services (including the fixed telephone) must operate. As such,
the ONT is powered from the domestic ac mains supply with a UPS. In order to
keep the ONT operating during mains power outages the UPS must be fitted with a
back-up battery (approximately 3 hours of reserve). The current policy is that
the homeowner must pay for the supply and installation of the battery if they
want communications to be maintained during power outages. In addition, the UPS
only issues a battery failure warning by a visual indicator so unless you are
continuously aware of this indication there is the likelihood that you will only
find out your battery is dead when you need to use the telephone during a power
outage.

Here is the battery reminder document issued by Telstra for its Velocity
customers (which is essentially the defacto standard for all NBN customers).
http://www.telstra.com.au/smartcommunity/assets/smartcommunitybattery_1108.pdf

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.


wrote:
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back-up
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which
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only
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That may be the way Telstra does it, but that doesn't mean the NBN will
be the same. Do you have a reference to anything that gives a definitive
statement on how the NBN will work?

Sylvia.

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.



:On 8/09/2010 4:41 PM, Ross Herbert wrote:
wrote:
:>
:> :On 7/09/2010 7:04 PM, Ross Herbert wrote:
:> :
:> :>
:> :>  Ah, but when you get on the NBN you won't have that reliable plain old
:> telephone
:> :>  service anymore when mains power fails - unless you buy your own UPS
back-up
:> :>  battery... Just pray that it is not an emergency 000 call you want to
make.
:> :>
:> :
:> :I use the Optus cable network for both Internet and phone access. The
:> :network has battery backup, and continues to function during power
:> :outages. I see no reason the NBN wouldn't be the same.
:> :
:> :Sylvia.
:>
:>
:> A FTTH NBN is a totally passive network, ie. no power is transmitted down the
:> cable. Every home on the NBN will have an Optical Network Terminal through
which
:> ALL residential services (including the fixed telephone) must operate. As
such,
:> the ONT is powered from the domestic ac mains supply with a UPS. In order to
:> keep the ONT operating during mains power outages the UPS must be fitted with
a
:> back-up battery (approximately 3 hours of reserve). The current policy is
that
:> the homeowner must pay for the supply and installation of the battery if they
:> want communications to be maintained during power outages. In addition, the
UPS
:> only issues a battery failure warning by a visual indicator so unless you are
:> continuously aware of this indication there is the likelihood that you will
only
:> find out your battery is dead when you need to use the telephone during a
power
:> outage.
:
:>
:> Here is the battery reminder document issued by Telstra for its Velocity
:> customers (which is essentially the defacto standard for all NBN customers).
:>
http://www.telstra.com.au/smartcommunity/assets/smartcommunitybattery_1108.pdf
:
:That may be the way Telstra does it, but that doesn't mean the NBN will
:be the same. Do you have a reference to anything that gives a definitive
:statement on how the NBN will work?
:
:Sylvia.

I have communicated directly with this federal department
http://www.dbcde.gov.au/broadband/national_broadband_network/ and they are
effectively the ones who tell Telstra what they must do. Telstra don't do
anything which all other telco's aren't also forced to do. Specifically, with
regard to the backup battery, the government caved in to a request from all the
private telecom lobbyists to ensure that they would not be forced to provide and
maintain the backup battery as a mandatory requirement when the NBN was dreamed
up. That's why Telstra and all others will not be providing the battery. DBCDE
agree with me that the customer is currently forced to provide and maintain
their own battery when the NBN is rolled out - no matter who the service
provider is.

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.



:On 8/09/2010 4:41 PM, Ross Herbert wrote:
wrote:
:>
:> :On 7/09/2010 7:04 PM, Ross Herbert wrote:
:> :
:> :>
:> :>  Ah, but when you get on the NBN you won't have that reliable plain old
:> telephone
:> :>  service anymore when mains power fails - unless you buy your own UPS
back-up
:> :>  battery... Just pray that it is not an emergency 000 call you want to
make.
:> :>
:> :
:> :I use the Optus cable network for both Internet and phone access. The
:> :network has battery backup, and continues to function during power
:> :outages. I see no reason the NBN wouldn't be the same.
:> :
:> :Sylvia.
:>
:>
:> A FTTH NBN is a totally passive network, ie. no power is transmitted down the
:> cable. Every home on the NBN will have an Optical Network Terminal through
which
:> ALL residential services (including the fixed telephone) must operate. As
such,
:> the ONT is powered from the domestic ac mains supply with a UPS. In order to
:> keep the ONT operating during mains power outages the UPS must be fitted with
a
:> back-up battery (approximately 3 hours of reserve). The current policy is
that
:> the homeowner must pay for the supply and installation of the battery if they
:> want communications to be maintained during power outages. In addition, the
UPS
:> only issues a battery failure warning by a visual indicator so unless you are
:> continuously aware of this indication there is the likelihood that you will
only
:> find out your battery is dead when you need to use the telephone during a
power
:> outage.
:
:>
:> Here is the battery reminder document issued by Telstra for its Velocity
:> customers (which is essentially the defacto standard for all NBN customers).
:>
http://www.telstra.com.au/smartcommunity/assets/smartcommunitybattery_1108.pdf
:
:That may be the way Telstra does it, but that doesn't mean the NBN will
:be the same. Do you have a reference to anything that gives a definitive
:statement on how the NBN will work?
:
:Sylvia.


Yes there is a document for the NBN. Just search for "battery".
http://www.dbcde.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/112554/Fibre_in_greenfields_consultation_paper.pdf

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.



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What, NBN == no existing copper service?  That'll be a forced changeover
only 'cos Telstra private let the network rot for years.  

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I got some big batteries, want my place to light up bright when the power
goes off, make everyone else in the street feel mad, must be their place ;)

Haven't found a round tuit for years, we don't get that many power fails.

Grant.

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.


wrote:
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ALWAYS".
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phones
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telephone
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I got a bag full of round tuits from ebay.

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.



wrote:
:
:>
:>:On 5/09/2010 5:43 PM, terryc wrote:
:>:> On Sun, 05 Sep 2010 08:07:09 +1000, Don McKenzie wrote:
:>:>
:>:>> Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.
:>:>> https://www.directoryselect.com.au/ds /
:>:>>
:>:>> I was asking about this a couple of days ago, as I haven't looked in a
:>:>> phone directory for many years. So why not stop phone books being
:>:>> delivered?
:>:>
:>:> Well, the power goes off due to a house fault and you need to call an
:>:> electrician, what do you do?
:>:
:>:I figure you do the same as when your hard drive crashes and you have no
:>backup. You panic! Then you ask this group how
:>:you can get your data from a dead drive. :-)
:>:
:>:I have always kept a standard 50VDC operated phone plugged in. "I MEAN
ALWAYS".
:>You don't need one plugged in, just
:>:handy, but mine is. That way, when I need to count to a 100+ for some silly
:>reason, and don't need a phone ring
:>:disruption, I drop it off the hook. Saves the batteries on the wireless
phones
:>also.
:>
:>Ah, but when you get on the NBN you won't have that reliable plain old
telephone
:>service anymore when mains power fails - unless you buy your own UPS back-up
:>battery... Just pray that it is not an emergency 000 call you want to make.
:
:What, NBN == no existing copper service?  That'll be a forced changeover
:only 'cos Telstra private let the network rot for years.

Indeed. That's the situation currently envisaged.
http://www.dbcde.gov.au/broadband/national_broadband_network/policy_statements

quote;
Delivery of Universal Service Obligations within NBN Fibre Coverage Areas

Telstra will have a regulated obligation to continue to operate and maintain its
existing copper lines while the fibre network is rolled out, until the copper
exchange associated with that fibre area is decommissioned.

For these purposes, the responsibility to deliver services under the USO will
transfer from Telstra to USO Co from the date that premises in an NBN fibre
coverage area are no longer actively connected to the copper exchange.

USO Co will meet the agreed cost of migrating voice-only customers to a fibre
service after the Telstra copper exchange is decommissioned. The protocols for
determining when individual copper exchanges within the NBN fibre coverage areas
are to be decommissioned will be agreed between the Government, NBN Co and
Telstra. (Telstra will be separately required to provide the ACCC with a
migration plan that sets out the mechanisms and time frames for migrating
customers from its copper network to the NBN).
unquote.

As you will be aware, The federal government will pay Telstra $B11 to acquire
its existing copper based customer infrastructure. This means that existing
copper based services will eventually be discontinued and dedicated telephone
exchanges will be decommissioned as stated above.

:
:>:And the Sparkies fridge magnet is on the fridge where it belongs. :-)
:
:I got some big batteries, want my place to light up bright when the power
:goes off, make everyone else in the street feel mad, must be their place ;)
:
:Haven't found a round tuit for years, we don't get that many power fails.
:

You may be fortunate to have underground power where reliability is high but
most consumers still have wooden power pole distribution and these poles are
notorious for not being properly maintained and falling over during a storm or
burning down during a bushfire.

Murphy says that when you most need to use the phone the mains power will be off
for 5 hours and your UPS battery will be flat.

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.



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Oh no, quiet suburban Bendigo, I happened to be on the other side of
railway for the cyclone hit, and other side of town for another blackout
-- just dumb luck.  
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Too right, and it's after a few hours people really start getting concerned
about freezers full of food and stuff, want to make phone calls, mobiles
will die and there only be the car radio.

Sylvia's earlier link suggested 12V 7AH battery, seems big at first, but
looks like it's another end user problem.  While at the moment there are
big centralised 48V battery backups, further backed up by diesel, not many
homes will have that sort of power standby length when it goes optical.

I've lost half a PC to a modem spike insult years ago, luckily got HDD and
mobo on warranty, had to buy new keyboard.  They'll no longer be a problem,
but we still have the mains surges ready to take stuff out.  

Grant.

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.


wrote:
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its
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areas
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off
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Must've been someone else's link.

The Optus cable repeaters have taps onto the power cables immediately
above them, suggesting that power isn't transmitted along the cable
itself. So I'd assumed that the repeaters themselves contain backup
batteries, which can't be so very big. There are certainly no backup
diesels hanging there!

But then, I don't know how long after the start of an outage the Optus
phone service will continue to run.

The SLA's described in the Telstra page appear to be these

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=SB2486

The discrepancy in the height relates to whether the connection tabs are
included.

My UPS uses them. The problem is they're not cheap, as you can see,
about $35 retail, and I get only about three year's use out of them even
though they spend almost all the their fully charged, and are rarely
called on to deliver power.

I can imagine people burning their houses down by shorting them out
while changing them.

Sylvia.

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.



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wrote:
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silly
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back-up
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http://www.dbcde.gov.au/broadband/national_broadband_network/policy_statements
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its
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for
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Oops :)
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Modern ones need a boost charge then lower float than older style,
depends which technology they use, they may also need proper initial
setup or forming, but there's less info on that floating about the
web.  Some manufacturers quote the method, but it takes a week or so,
don't expect a supplier to perform that function.  Reason is that
less formed batteries have a much longer shelf life, so it's good for
the resellers.

Those poor things don't survive many outages as PC UPS, but at least
a phone or telecomms UPS would not be asked for the same power delivery
amount as a PC backup would be.  
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Snap! OUCH! Sparks.  No house burn down?  Give one a fright, maybe
the battery explode it one reacts the wrong way --> weld contacts
to metal cover -- surely case designers would do a better job?  Hmmm.

An old UPS I retired wasn't very good in the battery compartment.

Not have a UPS at the moment, want a decent 24V one, or fulltime
inverter and charger style, not sure, not done a technology survey
for a few years.

Grant.

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.



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I suppose I was more thinking about careless handling prior to
installing, or indeed careless handling of the battery being replaced,
which presumably won't actually be dead. People are so used to things
being idiot proof that they don't know how to handle things that aren't.

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I currently have two UPSs as a result of buying a replacement, and then
figuring out how to repair the one it was replacing. Both use 24V by
running two of the above batteries in series (which is actually a
slightly questionable practice).

I don't really see the point of paying extra for a fulltime version -
the switch over time for the part time versions is much too small to be
noticed by a PC power supply. Assuming that's what you're using it for,
of course.

Sylvia.

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.



SNIP
:
:I can imagine people burning their houses down by shorting them out
:while changing them.
:
:Sylvia.


I doubt that homeowners will be allowed (technically) to change their own
battery. The UPS forms part of the equipment supplied by the service provider
and it may be the case (I haven't yet seen anything on this subject though) that
only licensed ACMA installers or electricians are allowed to perform this task.
I estimate that even if a prime quality battery is used and a licensed installer
is used, it will cost around $100 - $140 every 5 years.

Of course, most homeowners will do the job themselves or get somebody who can do
it for them.

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.


wrote:
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Well, perhaps, but the Telstra document cited by you earlier would
certainly lead me to expect to change the battery myself. It says "you
must regularly check the battery indicators and replace it as
recommended by the manufacturer."

I suppose the manufacturer might say "get a qualified technician to
replace it" or words to that effect, though my UPS manuals provide
detailed instructions on how to do it, with no suggestion that it's a
task for a professional.

Sylvia.

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.



Snip
:
:The SLA's described in the Telstra page appear to be these
:
:http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=SB2486

This is the UPS which Telstra was using on their Velocity service
http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/ASTE-6Z8LRK_R0_EN.pdf

It is now superseded so I don't know what they are using now, but it will be
similar.

:
:The discrepancy in the height relates to whether the connection tabs are
:included.
:
:My UPS uses them. The problem is they're not cheap, as you can see,
:about $35 retail, and I get only about three year's use out of them even
:though they spend almost all the their fully charged, and are rarely
:called on to deliver power.
:
:I can imagine people burning their houses down by shorting them out
:while changing them.
:
:Sylvia.

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.




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They are essentially 700ma for 3.5 hours, which doesn't go far really if
it is a significant blackout.

The real problem with any battery is they do not like being left on
trickle charge for months. You really need a system to give them a
workout every month(who remembers that more than once or twice).

 

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.



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Got to be automated?  Float too high corrodes the cells, under float
sulphates, so one needs under float with the occasional light
discharge/charge cycle to exercise the things (something like that?).  

Not at all like the old flooded cell equalising overcharge they used
to do decades ago on traction batteries.

Grant.

Re: Tell Telstra to stop sending you dead trees.


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The spec sheet linked to from the Jaycar page I posted indicates 648mA
for 10 hours.

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My UPS runs on battery for about a minute once a month. The primary goal
appears to be to test that the batteries are still up to the task, since
the UPS starts beeping if they're not, but it exercises them a bit as well.

Sylvia.

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