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Re: Some Offpeak battery bank calculations
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Wow you really know how to pad the price on those battery's

  halve it for a realistic price .

Re: Some Offpeak battery bank calculations

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Where from.
Cheapest 12V 200 AH deep cycle battery I could find in Australia is
$780.
As the OP based his calculations on battery life of 10 years, then
solar type storage batteries are about the only option.


Re: Some Offpeak battery bank calculations
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Speak to an Asian importer , the prius battery through toyo is 3k ,
direct importer 1/2 that , stop thinking corner retail

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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Maybe there is more to it.
I just had a 1kW system installed.
I talked to the Western Power guy who installed the new meter. He said it should
be compulsory to install PV solar on every new building, (!) maybe a little
unrealistic:-). Our northern suburbs (Perth) apparently are desperately short of
substation capacity and solar is helping a lot there.

If you check the power tariffs you will find that peak prices ( 25c for smart
power users) applies just in the hours where the sun is the strongest.

I consume about 4kWh/day solar energy directly. This energy doesn't have to be
produced at the power station, meaning there are no transmission or transformer
losses. Since, from memory, only about 50% of the energy produced at the station
actually reaches the consumer, this saves actually 8kwh of power station
produced energy, right?

My energy surplus that's being produced (2 -4 kwh/day)arrives at my neighbours
also nearly lossless.

And it's kind of clean energy.

Tony




Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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Yes - the cost of the required subsidies would bankrupt the government.

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I'd have thought the sun would be strongest symmetrically about the
solar midday, whereas the powersmart tarif is highest (in summer)
between 11am and 5pm, which is probably when it tends to be warmest, but
is somewhat skewed away from the maximum insolation.

Having houses with solar power delays the point at which substations
need to be expanded, but power demands seem to grow inexorably (partly
due to increasing population densities), so sooner or later those
subtations need to be upgraded.

I think it's entirely possible that the money spent on PV cells would be
better spent on earlier expansion of the substations. I also note that
in Perth, winter peak periods are from 7am to 11am in the morning and
from 5pm to 9pm in the evening, presumably reflecting power being used
for heating. Solar PV cells would do little to address that.

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This 50% figure is certainly a myth. See

<http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2007/07/energy-efficiency-in-the-power-grid-49238

There was a TV advertisement the other day that tried to push the idea
that the grid is less than 50% efficient, but avoided actually saying
so, instead providing the next to useless, and deliberately misleading,
piece of information, to the effect that less than 50% of the power
going into the grid eventually reaches a light-bulb.

There seems to be a deliberate misinformation campaign in progress.

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Except that the energy used to make the cells was unlikely to have been
"green" energy. Cell manufacture is an energy intensive process, and
manufacturers will certainly get the best power deals they can. These
cells are being produced by companies who are doing it to make a profit,
not because they are idealistic.

Sylvia.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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<http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2007/07/energy-efficiency-in-the-power-grid-49238
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In Western Australia in summer on weekdays the load peaks at exactly
6pm, plus or minus a few minutes. Check with Western power if you don't
believe me.

Coal fired boilers in WA are about 25 to 32 percent efficient in
converting the coal energy to steam energy, then you have the turbine
and grid losses on top of that.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area



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Not to mention that any subsidies or 'incentives' put up the tax burden which
you also have to pay.

Until PV solar power can pay its way on a level playing field, any use of it (
beyond off-grid applications ) is simply playing politics.

Graham


Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area

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That is part of what I want to investigate further. Given that electricty
prices are taking off and a feeling that interest rates are going to stay
low for a while, this might be the best time to "invest"


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Yep.





Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area



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**Not IMO. The best time to invest will be later, when one of several things
occur:

* The cost of PV cells (amorphous) will plummet when supply comes remotely
close to meeting demand. Figure on a 90% reduction in PV cell costs within
20 years. Maybe as little as 10. It's hard to say, since as prices fall,
demand will rise.
* The 'feed-in' tarif in your location will play a part. In NSW, right now,
it's not a smart idea. In Germany, it is.
* As mounting hardware becomes more standardised and more easily available,
costs will fall.
* As more guys become installers, competition will forces costs down.

All this needs to be balanced against rising electricity costs, of course.

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**Indeed. Some do it, because they feel that they are making a difference.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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That is proposed to be changed in June to a very attactive feed-in rate
(IIRC, 5 times), as mentioned in a recent thread.
Also, the solar rebate will no longer be means tested after that date. It is
currently means tested, and any household over (IIRC) $100K income gets
nothing back.
Both are excellent moves.

But if you care about the "carbon" point of view, then come June you will be
subsidising the big polluters, as your quota of solar energy will be counted
in the mandatory targets. This is a really really bad move.

Dave..



Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area

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Of course we will eventually reach the point where excess power from PV's
will be worthless to the grid, as there will be no demand during the day,
and heaps of demand during the night. Then we will see everyone switching
from non-battery to battery (at the moment if you have batteries you may not
sell back to the grid, so no one does it).

I advise people to stay away from pv as the most they can save is there
power bill, which simply isn't worth the risk of outlayings many many
thousands of dollars.



Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area

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I have been waiting for this to happen for 20 years already.

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Technology improvements could just as easily account for that. I was
reading about a little boxen from NEC that claims 25% increased output
from series strings of panels

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So prices will not fall.

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Screw that. Money kept in my pocket is my interest. There is some big
subsidies going atm and if it means I can save more long term, then it is
a wise investment.


Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area



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**You'll need to wait a little (or a lot) longer. As electricity costs rise
(as they will surely do) and PV cells continue to fall in price, demand for
PV cells will increase, thus keeping prices somewhat higher than they
otherwise might be. PV cell production has been doubling every 2 years.
Nonetheless, this is an interesting article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics

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**Don't expect massive increases in outputs from panels (of a given size).
Expect to see panels fall in price and better resistance to shadowing.

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**Prices will fall, but the rate of fall will be mitigated by increasing
demand. It's just economics.

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**Electricity is too cheap in Australia to make it worthwhile. In places
like Hawaii, where electricity must be generated by Diesel, PV cells are a
viable competitor.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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  I see a commercially available solar cell made with a thin layer of
silicon on top of stainless steel. It's not as efficient as single
crystal silicon cells but the lower energy cost to make it and the fact
it can be made tens of metres in length make it's energy payoff period
shorter. It's only weakness is the extreme thinness of it.

     So far in the lab they have compound semi cells past 43% efficiency
and climbing. I'll be very interested in seeing these come to market as
they should cost a lot less than silicon cells.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area



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**Indeed. Since silicon is the largest single expense in mono and poly
crystalline cells, thin film types should fall dramatically in price. I'd
reckon that 10% of their present price is not an unreasonable expectation.
The only impediment (if you can call it that), is increasing demand, which
is tempering price falls ATM.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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    There are factories being built using new processes to make solar
grade silicon as opposed to semiconductor grade silicon that should
produce it for under a third of the cost of the semi grade.

    One new process that was a bit of an eye opener was a Japanese guy
who would heat window glass in a solution of salts. Glass become
conductive when hot so he could convert the silicon dioxide of the glass
into silicon by passing a current through it. I'm not sure whether the
energy cost was worth it though, unless the glass is free it may be more
trouble that it's worth.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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In any case, it's a mistake to assume that the price of PV cells can
keep coming down. There's a lead-acid battery in pretty much every
land-vehicle that's built. Yet they're still expensive. Some things just
cost a lot to make.

Sylvia.

Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area



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**No, it's not (a mistake). Silicon costs keep mono and poly crystalline
cell prices high. Thin film cells use vastly less silicon (around 1% of the
silicon used in mono types). Amorphous cells are only marginally less
expensive than mono and poly crystalline types. It is simply economics
(supply and demand) that keeps amorphous cell prices high.

 There's a lead-acid battery in pretty much every
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**Bad example.
*Lead/acid batteries have been around for many, many decades.
*They have been mass produced for at least 90 years.
*The basic technology was mature by 1920.
*Minor improvements have occurred, which reduce costs of manufacture
slightly, but nothing major. Serious batteries still require a lot of lead.
*Lead is the major component in auto batteries. It always has been. Lead is
relatively costly.
*Supply outstrips demand and has done for many decades.


*PV cells have been around since the 1960s, but have only been mass produced
in the last couple of decades.
*The technology required to produce PV cells is prodigious (unlike lead/acid
batteries).
*Silicon is the major component of mono and poly crystalline cells. It is
expensive (after refining).
*It is a minor component of thin film cells.
*Manufacturing of PV cells is far from a mature technology.
*You can be absolutely certain that thin film cells will fall in price over
the next decade.
*Demand outstrips supply and has done for several decades.

AFTER the manufacture (and, to some extent, the installation) of PV cells
becomes a mature technology, it's cost basis will be closely related to the
materials cost, with some labour and profit added in. Like lead/acid
batteries.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area

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Spot on.
Sylvia must be off with the fairies.

Dave.



Re: Rooftop Pv installers in Sydney area
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Is that the best you can offer? If you have nothing to say, why not just
say nothing?

Sylvia.

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