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Feb 20,  2007.


"  **  Anyone seen tonight's news ??

Our fuckwit pollies have all climbed on a VERY dodgy Greenie bandwagon with
this asinine idea.

Like that episode of  "Yes Minister" where Sir Humphrey explained the
mysteries of  " Politicians logic "  to the minister like this  .....

" Imagine a very serious problem has been identified  .....

So, WE politicians must do * SOMETHING *  about it and soon  !!!

NEXT:  along comes an idea that seems to be in the right direction ...

Immediately the worried pollies all howl in unison

THIS   * IS *   SOMETHING    !!!!!

Therefore  * WE *  must do it    !!!!      "

The plain truth is that CFLs consume enormously more energy in their
creation and distribution than the familiar incandescent bulb.

PLUS  - dead ones generate ENORMOUSLY more and far more  SERIOUS
environmental pollution than tiny bit of glass and burnt tungsten wire does.

PLUS  -  they are a absolute pig to dim.

PLUS  -  they generate harsh, fluorescent tube type light the nobody likes
in their homes.

PLUS -  they are often slow to light up which can be a serious safety hazard
in many situations.

Anyone care to add to the list of  NEGATIVE impacts ??

BTW:

Bet Leo gets all fired up.    "



** Well  -  the man has.

See the April 2007 edition  " Silicon Chip "  when it arrives.



......   Phil






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More
Regurgitated drivel
We hate you Philis


Phil Allison wrote:
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Re: Remember THIS Post ?
snipped-for-privacy@inthecloud.com says...
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hes actually right with about 70% for the most part, some being
probabilistic, like turn on time and lifespan

*but*

his method of imparting these posts makes him look stupid therefore
his posts might well have the opposite effect therefore he is prob
a mouthpiece for big business...

The question arises then:-

Does he want to look stupid and undisciplined, was he not breast fed
or what other reason could he have for being so agressive, does he
need viagra or some other stimulants other than being compelled to
swear on technical topics...

--
Regards
Mike
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   He WAS breast fed, but by his dad.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
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Thought it didn't come out for another week or so, how did you get the
inside goss?

BTW, did anyone ever post that infamous SC editorial about
Aus.Electronics?

Dave :)


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"David L. Jones"
 "Phil Allison"
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**  See: http://sound.westhost.com/articles/incandescent.htm

At the end of the intro paras.




.......  Phil




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The ElectroCap bulging looks like one of the faulty batch we
experienced in computers a while ago. Same colour and appears to be
same brand...

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Pity the person who wrote this article has no idea about power
generation and system losses. Actual system losses in NSW for Transgrid
was 2.7% for year ended 30/6/06, and for Integral Energy 4.96%, giving a
  total system loss for Integral Energy customers of 7.7%. Claiming
"distribution losses can reach 20% easily (and I have even heard as high
as 50% in some cases where extremely long feeders [several hundred
kilometres] are used)" is totally wrong.

Also the article states:"A (now empty) CFL pack I have states the colour
temperature as 3500K, and says that the lamps are 8W (equivalent to
40W). It also claims the current to be 80mA (but I measured it as 60mA,
a rating of ~17VA ... not 8W at all, giving a power factor of 0.47). The
actual generating capacity needed is therefore closer to that of the
40W incandescent lamp, not as claimed. People are being seriously
mislead by the term 'power' - as noted above, this may be what you pay
for, but is not what must be generated."

This is wrong also. Any modern generator can provide significant
reactive generating capability, even when working at full load. For
example the 660MW units at Eraring power station can produce 410 MVAr of
reactive power while generating 660MW of real power (more at lower
load). The prime mover only needs to provide real power (not the
reactive power), so no additional coal (and green house gas) is required
above the real power drawn by the lamp.

In addition reactive plant is typically installed in switch yards close
to the demand, avoiding reactive losses on the transmission lines.
Transgrid has 3300MVAr of shunt capacitors installed on the Newcastle /
Sydney / Wollongong 330kV and 132kV system.

An 8W lamp will require approx 8.6W generation capacity, versus 43W
required for an incandescent lamp.

David






Re: Phil the Idiot Savant



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What about all that stuff he wrote about CLs not being reactive?  How can
the CL have "poor PF" and yet not be reactive?  Forgive me but I'm just
another ASD c*nt.  ;-)



Re: Phil the Idiot Savant


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harmonics.

and passive PF correction works just fine - they are called harmonic
traps (or filters). of course you wont fit any such passive harmonic/VAR
compensating stuff inside a CFL.....

also, while var compensation is fairly common at the PCC of a large
customer (eg steel mill), there is none for small customers (eg house).
and there are a lot of houses.

so the VARs whizz back and forth, at least as far as the nearest
substation (which probably has var compensation), heating up the line.
the losses here are a thorough inconvenience, but the real problem is
the heat - lines are designed for a given amount of heat. If thats
coming from VARs (to whit: reactive current and line resistance), then
it cant be used for W.

Cheers
Terry

Re: Phil the Idiot Savant


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Oh, ok.  I never really thought of that, but I never really think much about
PF anyway.  ;-)  I guess I just always thought it was about inductive or
capacitive reactance and that was it.  I didn't really think of waveform
distortion as anything more than line noise.

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Kinda tough fitting those parts in the lamp base. ;-)  Couldn't they just
build them into fixtures or outlets, or do they have to be customized for
the CFL at hand?  Aren't they just low pass filters?  Or is that only part
of the problem and that you need to still apply correction for reactance?

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Ok, got it.



Re: Phil the Idiot Savant


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some (naughty) manufacturers specify unity displacement factor for their
rectifier-capacitor input stages. which is true. but conveniently
ignores the masses of harmonics.

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rather than LPFs they tend to be selective traps. you would need a very,
very high order filter to attenuate 3rd harmonic by, say 20dB while
leaving 1st alone.....

and using 50/60Hz reactive components means they are LARGE.


Or is that only part
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you can loosely categorise loads thusly:

1) resistive loads - unity power factor, no harmonics

2) reactive loads - non-unity power factor. if the loads arent too
nonlinear (magnetics are, somewhat) then no harmonics.

3) non-linear loads. non-unity power factor, truckloads of harmonics.

the most common example is a rectifier-capacitor input stage for a smps.
This draws a LOT of harmonics (eg 60% 3rd isnt uncommon), but typically
the fundamental is pretty much in-phase with the voltage (the measure of
1st harmonic phase shift is called displacement factor, DF = cos(Phi1)),
so the 1st harmonic looks resistive (AKA isnt reactive)

so if you snot the harmonics, the PF ends up pretty good.


A simple way to improve a rectifier-cap filter is to use two caps and 3
diodes, so the caps charge in series and discharge in parallel. Still
nasty, just less so.

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Cheers
Terry

Re: Phil the Idiot Savant



"Terry Given"

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**  There is no actual reactive component in the current draw.

 No current can POSSIBLY flow back from a CFL into the supply.


Since EU regulations do  NOT  require a load of less than 75 watts to comply
with PF or harmonic current regulations -   the Chinese are not gonna make
CFLs that do.





......  Phil






Re: Phil the Idiot Savant


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that may not be true. If there is an EMC filter on the AC line side, it
will contain both DM & CM inductance. Hence DF will not be exactly one.
The pi filter on the DC side may also look a bit inductive, depending on
actual component values (if the bulk of the capacitance is on the
rectifier side, it wont)

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hmm, by definition AC always does that.


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and thats really the crux of the issue.

I suspect that once incandescents are gone, the power
generation/distribution industry will shriek, and loudly. relevant
legislation wont be too far behind.

expect to see the same sorts of problems in apartment buildings that
happened in office buildings when PCs with SMPS became ubiquitous -
undersized neutral conductors failing (and even catching fire).

Cheers
Terry

Phil the Expert



" Terry Given    KIWI   PSYCHOPATH  "



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   **  What insane crap.


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** But you still insist on seeing it from the WRONG point of view.

     Fuckwit !!



......  Phil






Re: Phil the Idiot Savant



 
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It happened before SMPS were common. I helped install a mainframe computer
in a large Canberra office building back in the mid 80s. When it was
switched on the 3 phase star connected mains transformer started to smoke.
After some investigation we found it was due to the excessive 3rd harmonics
on the mains from the hundreds of fluros in the building (confirmed when
the problem went away at 2am when the building lights went out).

The sparkie's solution - pull of the neutral connection and let it float.
there was 80 volts between the mains neutral and the transformer star point
after that was done. The machine ran like that for the next 6 years without
any problem.

Re: Phil the Idiot Savant


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was it the flouro ballasts saturating that caused the excessive 3rd?

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yikes! I can just see someone coming along, thinking "I can touch
neutral, its connected to Earth" and getting an unpleasant, potentially
fatal, surpirse.

Great story!

Cheers
Terry

Re: Phil the Idiot Savant



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I have no idea, sorry, it was the consultant sparky who suggested the cause
backed up by the evidence that the problem went away when the lights went
out.

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We disconnected the transformer neutral wire from the back of the tagblock
taped it back and sealed it. We also put a tag on the block explaining what
we had done.

The sparky told us of a similar case at Kodak in Melbourne where they
actually welded the neutral connection on the main switchboard as anybody
disconnecting it would probably be killed.


Re: Phil the Idiot Savant


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thats a pretty convincing argument....

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Yikes! Smart move on their part.

Cheers
Terry

Re: Phil the Idiot Savant



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Only AC ?
Doesn't ALL current flow in a loop? :-)

MrT.



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