Re: New game in Sydney

Monster cables etc. are meant to separate audiofools from their money. Just like the bullshit with valve amplifiers. There are many fuckwits who think they have 'golden ears', in fact they are just being conned and are unable to understand why. Sad but true.

There is no best.

You're such an incredible idiot, your benchmark must be Harvey Normans or JB HiFi.

If you have the courage of your convictions, why not create an account at

and start a thread on this very topic. Let's see how you fare there . Oh, and it's well moderated, so you surely won't be 'victimised' there...

Pretty much.

I have to disagree in principle about valve amps, I do have a couple myself but my favourite amps are all SS. All depends on personal preference. I learned long ago that I'm not seeking truly accurate reproduction, which invariably was disappointing to me. But yes, point taken. Plenty of snake oil and people deceiving themselves out there in the audio world. At least know what you want, and why.

"pretty much" implies there might be some other reason as well? Fact is there is little wrong with Monster cables other than the price. But they certainly aren't any better than many others, and not as good as some. And there *definitely* is a *quality* difference between cables, not usually much if any sound difference though, until the cheap ones stop working. The sound difference then is rather large! :-) There CAN be sound differences though like microphonics, hum from poor shielding etc.

Precisely. Valve amps have their own distortions which some people find more pleasing than an amp without it. Simple as that. Nothing wrong with that, but like vinyl freaks, I just wish they'd shut up and stop pretending it is somehow better, rather than simply a minority preference they get to have. (and can keep IMO :-)

Trevor.

Heh :) I know what you mean, even though I'm into vinyl myself. Also into digital formats, of course. I appreciate the good points of both.

For old recordings mixed in the era when valve amps dominated the middle and high-end, it is concievable that a "typical" good valve amp would produce a better sound than a typical SS amp, because presumably the mix would have been intended to be listended to with valve distoritions (and indeed the producer would have listened to it with valve distortions). Of course, that doesn't apply to modern mixes when no valve distortion is anticipated.

While sometimes the vinyl version of an album is better[1], that's not a result of the medium (apart from some bad masters of early CDs from cheaper publishers, where the signal was post-processed to make a master which could be used for more pressing with a tolerable result, so all the CDs were excessively harsh). Whatever the reason, a digital copy of the record will of course have all the merits of the original vinyl, while having the ongoing merits of a digital recording.

[1] Most commonly because the digital version was remastered badly, or was prodced lazily from a decayed master which was worse than some suviving record from the original, but sometimes just becuase there is no official digital verison.

Those valve distortions are also on the recording and will be faithfully reproduced by a good digital transfer. Back in the early days mixer consoles, mic pre-amps, cutting lathe pre-amps etc were valve, (as were guitar amps) so there is no shortage of "valve sound" on the recordings already.

So pretty much everything in the last 50+ years. And a lot in the decade or so before that as well.

Exactly, something many vinyl fanatics still won't admit though.

Trevor.

If this is the case with high power SS amps, I can't see how they will be better off with low power valve amps? One answer of course would be to simply limit the input to the amp so it never clips. A compressor/peak limiter will be cheaper than a valve amplifier if you simply want that overload knee.

Trevor.

"Low power" is a relative term. You quoted an example of a 100W valve amp whereas one can get a solid state amp with 5 times the power for similar or less money. Simply no need to ever clip the latter if the former is powerful enough! But a valve amp with 5 times the power would be out of the question! And soft clipping systems are a choice, not something that necessarily defines "well designed" IMO. Most amps that have them also have a switch to turn them off. (Having the option to turn it on is not a bad thing though all else being equal.) Or one can often do the job better with the input signal IMO. Or simply proper use of the volume/gain control in the first place since unlike live music, you always know what the maximum input levels are going to be when playing recorded music.

Trevor.

Have done runs up to about 10 metres without any problem using normal amps, cables and speakers. Any further and I'd just move the amp instead.

Or the speaker cable in any amp with output filters. ie most of them.

You mean poorly shielded and filtered amplifiers may be affected. ZGNFB design will reduce the problem of course.

In a purely resistive load higher inductance cable should reduce the problem, not make it worse. As long as you don't coil them up anyway. A shield will help of course if it's earthed.

Yet you happily accept valve amps with output transformers! :-)

Of course it is. As I said simply buy a bigger SS amp for less and the clipping issue goes away.

Yet you claimed a soft knee was a benefit of valve amps. As I keep pointing out it ISN'T if you factor in cost!

You mean because you can find bigger rip off prices for a few SS amps, a rip off price for a valve amp is OK? So let me ask this, do YOU own any of those listed? I sure don't!

Works just fine for me!!!! I suggest if it doesn't work for you then that is YOUR fault.

Nor do the *vast* majority of SS amps costing *FAR* less. So once again, what is the point?

If money was no object I'd buy a Ferrari long before I'd buy a valve amp.

Above examples prove absolutely nothing!!! You simply did not list any of the huge amount of low cost SS amps with far more power that cost far less and also have "no audible flaws" How disingenuous an argument! It's like saying a Toyota Prius is better than a petrol car because it costs less than a Rolls Royce!

No argument there, but hardly relevant.

And vice versa. Most people don't have a clue if they can't see.

Me either, even though I still have two expensive turntables. Would only get worse if I had to replace cartridges all the time as well :-( But the convenience aspect is the main difference for me. So pleased not to have to deal with vinyl all the time like I did 30+ years ago!

Of course it can, at a much higher cost. (and listing a few overpriced SS amps proves nothing when good ones ARE available for far less) Not to mention cost of maintenance, new valves etc. that are not required for SS.

Trevor.

If I (or anyone else) can't tell the difference between 1 metre cables and 10 metre cables I'm happy. No need to look for non existent problems IMO.

As does the output filter in most solid state amps, as I already said. If you are using one without them, of course you may need another solution. Despite your original statement however that low inductance was the prime factor, shielded cables would help here far more than low inductance cable.

You are contradicting yourself here! YOU said ZGNF would help more than once! :-) But so will *higher inductance cable* but not as much of course.

Why do you state "most valve amps are immune" then? Because of the output transformer for one thing. I seriously doubt the 100W valve amp you quoted is transformerless?

Exactly, me either!

True, a Ferrari often outperforms a Toyota Corolla too when it's going. Your point is what exactly? IME there are *far* more (percentage wise since there aren't actually that many valve amps at all!) low performing valve amps than solid state amps at *any* given price point!

But *almost always* compared to valve amps. One or two exceptions out of thousands do nothing to disprove that.

Some of us listen to music rather than debates over which valve topology compromise is the better choice, when there are better options with less compromises for less money readily available.

No argument. Most modern solid state amps sound quite decent, few sound like crap any more. And usually cost far less. Aren't technology advances wonderful! :-)

Exactly, more expensive, less performance. Some people like the warm glow of exposed tubes though. Good luck to them.

How novel, some companies are rip off merchants regardless of product. Not just valve amp builders. Who would have thought it! Each company is simply satisfying a market though or they wouldn't stay in business. That their market is simply people with more money than sense is just the capitalist system in action. My biggest beef is that a lot of people do have a lot more money than sense, not with the companies seeking to exploit them.

Yes, and we know what company that is. And thanks for proving my point. Even many of those who stick up for valve amps wouldn't actually want to buy one! Or any of the overpriced SS amps they throw in as straw men :-)

Than what exactly? Seems to work for you too though since you have been happily using your ME amp since 1983. You do have a habit of constantly contradicting yourself just to continue an argument. Not sure why?

As long as you don't have to prove it with a double blind test of course! Never heard a SS amplifier considered HiFi in the last 20 or 30 years that was inferior to any speaker ever made. So I always worry about where the problems really exist. Life's too short to waste hunting such BS IMO. But you are welcome to.

You do understand what "money no object" means right? If talking about valve amps I would have thought it mandatory.

Who would have thought it also possible to buy SS amps that are grossly overpriced? Gee thanks for telling us TW!

Wonder who said they couldn't? Certainly wasn't me! But just like *YOU*, I don't bother with either any more. Why the hell you bother wasting time on continually arguing the point is another matter entirely however?

I still have 1,000 pre 1985 pristine vinyl records to play. No need to buy more. Still can't be bothered playing them hardly at all. Bet you also have a vinyl collection you now play on CD instead. In any case anybody who thinks any modern music recorded digitally is going to sound better on vinyl is a real nut case. That just leaves a few real nutters who prefer to record a whole project to tape still, rather than simply use it as the "effect" it now is.

So by your own admission, a SS amp beat a valve amp costing twice the price. Thanks for proving my point! I wouldn't have bought either of the last two, so wouldn't have even bothered comparing them when that sort of money is FAR better spent on speakers.

Trevor.

You are absolutely correct Fetid.

Pity that your beloved monster cables are amongst the very worst at doing that.

He's right of course, "under certain circumstances"... "when the situation demands it". Not something that too many people have to deal with though. Obviously you don't, and neither do I.

Trevor.

Absolutely, I've had more than one interconnect fail and that certainly affects the sound! :-)

Trevor.

And most that think they do I would hazard to guess.