Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights?? - Page 2

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Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??

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A absolutely agree with you.  Unless you're able to get the electronics
right to power the LEDs without wasting a large amount of electricity in
order to get the small amount actually needed for the LEDs, there's
going to be little or no gain.

But given that the type of devices being discussed are intended to be
replacements for incandescent globes, the only light in a vehicle newer
than October 1991 in Australia that can be legally converted is the
interior light.  :-)

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol Linux Registered User # 254000
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Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??

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Abso-bloody-lutely.

There's too much focus on "efficiency", when in the big picture, the
difference in total energy consumed is tiny in comparison with
making and moving a modern car around.

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Crikey. My (August) 1990 Golf GTI was first complianced in November 1991.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | Great minds discuss ideas;
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Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??
I use a PWM based circuit to drive my LED arrays on parker mode which ends
up in a significant power saving, driving over 60 leds @70ma  and the
control board draws less than 50ma (as reported by the regulated power
supply).



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Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??

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So these are in a pre-10/'91 vehicle, or are you running illegal lights?

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol Linux Registered User # 254000
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Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??
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I admit, i'm running totally illegal modified tail lights that are brigher,
more visible and more reliable than original filament globes... (i.e we're
not talking ebay drop in crap here...)

I was fed up with having problems with the globes being pathetically dim and
decided a well planned LED array would light the housing evenly, smoothly
and provide much better safety and warning to other drivers.



Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??


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Well done.

That's the most elaborate way of saying "I'm a rice boy" I've ever heard :)

--
Regards,
Noddy.



Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??
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Never really thought of myself as a rice boy to be honest. I tend to do all
my mods backwards to most other people i know. I started out with handling
then added power, i do modifications that are functional rather than simply
looking good etc.

I wouldn't think that 'rice boys' would spend months on research, design and
testing either modifications, hand building their circuits and a high level
of attention to detail.

I'm not saying what i've done should be approved because i spent time on it,
but rather that there are some people who take a great deal of care to make
sure what they do is worthwhile.

Cheers.




Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??

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I guess that you're not aware that there are upper and lower limits on
light intensity to prevent excessive glare for drivers following you...

Get it wrong and it's as bad as fitting HID projector globes into H4
housings or driving around with your fog lights on.

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol Linux Registered User # 254000
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Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??

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Thanks Athol,

Yes i figured that there would be upper limits on such things, although i
have no means to test.

I think that when i revise the setup i will lower the "brake" power to
around 55ma from 70ma per LED as i have driven behind the car at night and
it is brighter than it needs to be, but the leds are behind a diffused lens
so their full output is being scattered, i.e its not a direct "beam" a the
following motorists.

During the day the brighness level is very good, especially during the
danger hours in the AM east bound and PM west bound where it can be hard to
see brake lights with sunglare.

HIDs in H4 housings, been there done that, evaluated the before and after
and promptly sold the setup, switched to an upgraded brightness H4 type
globe with no coating on the glass (Tungsram +60%). I have been working on
retrofitting some HID projectors to the factory housings, but have not as
yet been able to source the eletronic motors fitted to the cars in japan to
be able to add on the fly height adjustment (and compensation for loads)
from inside the car (does not and will never comply with ADR of course, but
doing it as best as i can).

I get as frustrated as most motorists who get the hell glared out of them by
some "ricer" with an 8000K HID kit that thinks they're cool.


Cheers.




Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??

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Speaking of which......
How do the ricers get away with running blue headlights when the relevant
ADR states that the colour should be on the yellow side of white?
(and how do manufacturers get approval for their xenon headlights?)

--
Kwyj.



Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??

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The colour range goes just far enough towards blue for the HIDs to be
just inside range.

There is no technical reason for them to be blue.  It's just that they
wanted them to be identifably different to incandescent lights.

IIRC, Daniel Stern (the lighting expert whose website the above info
came from a long time ago) intended to push for the colour limits to
be tightened to eliminate the current blue crap on the next revision
of the UN-ECE regs...

Most of the tinted H1/H3/H4/whatever globes are worse than useless and
few are ADR compliant.

--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol Linux Registered User # 254000
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Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??


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They don't.

I've got a box full of the things here I bought at an auction with a bunch
of other stuff, and they all have "Intended for off-road use only" stamped
on the packets.

--
Regards,
Noddy.



Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??


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In terms of light output against total power consumption, they are streets
ahead. LED's have always been very highly efficient light emitters,
converting almost all of the electrical energy they consume into photons.
Filament lamps, by comparison, are extremely inefficient, with efficiences
well under 50 percent and in most cases, it's no better than 20 to 30
percent. That's why filament lamps produce so much heat.

The issue has been creating LED products that can output enough light to
match filament lamps, but that's got little to do with the differences in
efficiency. It's because LED's are so efficient that creating the technology
to make them comparable to filament lamps has actually happened.

Filament lamps have been around for longer than motor vehicles powered by
internal combustion engines have existed, but because they are so cheap to
make (which belies their inefficiency) they've persisted for almost 100
years as the primary source of auxilliary lighting in motor vehicles.

Craig.
--
Craig's Saab C900 Page at      | Craig's Classic Saab Workshop - Sydney .au
http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 | http://www.classicsaab.net and other URL's
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Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??

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**Not necessarily. Only when you look at the premium products, like Cree or
Luxeon.

 LED's have always been very highly efficient light emitters,
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**Absolute and complete bollocks. I still have a handful of the first LEDs
easily available on the Australian market. I don't have the figures, but I
guess they are rated at around 0.1 millicandela. A typical, cheap, high
output LED is rated for about 10,000 mCd. Even at 10,000mCd, those LEDs are
way behind Cree and Luxeons. Figure on it being around 1% efficient. IOW: 1%
of electrical energy is converted to light. The rest is converted to heat.


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**Wrong. Incandescents are VASTLY less efficient than 50%. Maybe 0.1% - 1%
efficient.

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**Only very high performance LEDs are significantly more efficient than
incadescents. Where they score very well, in in green and blue. Blue,
particularly, is a colour not easly produced by incandescents.

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**Of course. Simple and cheap. Just what the automotive industry lusts
after. Do not be misled, however. Your efficiency statements are way off the
mark. And it's blindingly simple for you to prove it for yourself. Grab a
decent HALOGEN torch. Measure the current flow and the light output. Then
try to achieve the same figures with an LED. You'll need a Cree or Luxeon
emitter to do so. You'll find that, unless you are using the very latest
Cree devices, that the light delivered by the LED is similar to that
delivered by the halogen. The rest goes in heat. And for that, you need a
decent heat sink on the Cree or the Luxeon. They get hot. Bloody hot.

Trevor Wilson



Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??


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That's true, but personally, after having tested a few different types, I'm
of the view that if chosen correctly, replacement LED lamps do a perfectly
fine job of replacing their filament-based cousins.

I don't know how it would be possible to actually test that replacement
generic LED lamps currently available to determine their 'compliance' with
ADR's unless every make/model of vehicle currently driven in Australia was
seperately tested with the most suitable generic LED replacement lamps that
can be bought in the general marketplace through Ebay sellers or auto parts
retailers.

The makes/models of new cars actually sold with LED lighting tend to have
very, very poorly conceived light arrays so it probably hinders people's
acceptance of LED replacement lighting solutions. The flood of very poor
quality Asian-made product isn't contributing either - took me a while to
locate sources of good quality product and in fact most of the original
batches of LED lamps I bought came from UltraLED's in the UK, and not from
cheap-arse Asian ebay sellers.

Craig.
--
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Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??


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Yes that's one of the major problems - the current crop of
commercially-available high-power LED's (Luxeon, etc.) require special power
supplies to drive them (though that isn't really much of a problem), and
even though they're extremely efficent, they still produce a fair amount of
waste heat that has to be dissipated somewhere.

Then again, if you had to generate the same light output using any type of
filament lamp, the waste energy produced due to extremely increased current
comsumption compared to LED's would result in a fire very, very quickly!

It would be like trying to use a 500 watt halogen spotlight to get the same
light output of a modern 10 watt high-effiency LED. Or somewhere in that
order of magnitude.

Craig.
--
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Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??

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**Not even close. If you're comparing a late model Cree device, then figure
on a 10 Watt LED equalling a 40 Watt halogen. Pretty impressive, but the LED
costs ten times more. Then you have to drive the LED correctly. Then you
have to heat sink the puppy.

I suggest you do some more research. You have no idea of the real figures in
this area.

Trevor Wilson




Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??

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And not all of us have an 'abundance' of Luxeon, Cree, etc. LED devices to
experiment with. 8-)

LED's are far superior light emitters than filament lamps because in
filament lamps so little of the energy is converted to visible light, and
most is turned into infrared (ie. heat) - it's not as little as 1 percent
though it is a small proportion.

Even el-cheapo 5 cent LED's (not intended for use in automotive
applications) convert almost all the electrical energy passing through them
into photons (ie. light), precisely how/where in the very narrow visible
part of the EM spectrum depends on the doping, etc. of the material the
functional part of the LED is made from (not including LED's designed to
emit invisible light such as IR led's).

So yes I know what I'm on about. No I do not have any of these Cree devices,
and I'm yet to find a luxeon device that can used a drop-in replacement for
any of the standard types of interior automotive lamps commonly used, or for
any of the standard types of indicator or brake lights commonly used,
without having to add additional electronics to drive them, and creative
ways to heatsink them.

So I don't think that the high-powered LED devices are really the answer for
replacing the common types of small filament lamps used in most cars, at
least not yet until they can be made into proper drop-in replacement devices
that don't need special 'interface' hardware, etc.

Craig.
--
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Re: Does the BF falcon have LED tail-lights??

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**And again: BULLSHIT! Repeating the same lie a second time, does not make
it the truth. LEDs are not that efficient. White LEDs are approximately the
same efficiency as halogens. Cree and other high end LEDs are around 4 X the
efficiency of halogens. IOW: Around the same efficiency as discharge lamps.

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**Again: BULLSHIT! Good quality white LEDs are approximately the same
efficiency as halogens.

 precisely how/where in the very narrow visible
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**Clearly, you do not.

 No I do not have any of these Cree devices,
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**It doesn't matter. I'm commenting on your ignorance WRT the efficiency of
LEDs vs. incandescents.

Trevor Wilson



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