Plug Pack and External Supply Ban

** Hi to all,

as some of you know already - new & COMPULSORY " MEPS " regulations are due to come into force in each Australian state from April 2008 that will have the effect of making virtually ALL transformer plug packs (both AC and DC output types) and most other external power supplies ( inc SMPS) currently on sale ** ILLEGAL ** !!

( MEPS = Minimum Energy Performance Standard )

The regulations and prohibitions will then apply to all new stock items, supplies offered with second hand equipment and all such supplies used in hire situations.

Some types are excluded - inc. battery chargers, external power supplies with multiple outputs and supplies rated at over 250 watts output.

Knocked out are all currently available iron transformer based external ( single voltage) supplies and most external SMPS including the ones currently supplied with laptop PCs.

The regulators neither know nor care a HOOT if suitable replacement power supplies exist for each device that presently uses such external supplies.

In the case of simple AC output supplies - NO replacement is presently available, at all.

See this page for an explanation of some of the expected problems with this latest, whacko Greenie inspired nonsense.

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If you have an ongoing need for plug-pack supplies, particularly AC output ones, might be a good idea to stock up soon.

....... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison
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The document is a Regulatory Impact Statement. It is not legislation. The various State Parliments that regulate the MEPS program have'nt even passed legislation, much less the legislation even being written. The April 2008 is a "proposed" date for the regulations to come into force. (page17). And there is no guarantee that the recommendations within the report will be accepted for legislation.

Reply to
dmm

"dmm"

** Huh ??? I did not quote that doc.

AFAIK - no new legislation is required to be passed, since MEPS regulations are simply added to the existing regulations made under the relevant sections of each state's Electricity / Electrical Safety Acts.

Did you have any real point to make ????

Any good reason to say the states will oppose this MEPS initiative?

On what grounds?

Local manufacture of E-Core plug packs .........

....... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

This was suppposed to be introduced this year (2007) but the RIS process was flawed and had to be redone, hence it has been put back to 2008. This is the regulators website for the scheme

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MEPS regulations are indeed already in legislation and the scope is extended when new product categories are added, which is pretty routine act of parliament. Most major suppliers have been aware of this for some time and a lot have started switching over to SMPS type adapters.

Apart from the AC output issue, there are a couple of hidden interpretative issues. Example, if the ac adapter has its output hardwired to the apparatus then it is still subject to the MEPS requirements. Initially many people thought hardwired devices were exempt because the supply was integral. The deciding factor is however whether the transformer is internal or external and not whether it is detachable or integral.

This scheme was first raised as likely as far back as far as 2000. A lot of suppliers and equipment manufacturers were invited to comment but many weren't overly concerned as there isn't much cost difference between an E iron cored xfmr and a SMPS based unit using off-the-shelf solutions, especially considering the big increase in the cost of silicon steel over the last 2-3 years.

The driving force behind this is the 'standby power' consumption issue and common sense hasn't really prevailed. The ac adapter was seen as a way of capturing a huge number of products in the regulatory net without having to separate them into categories. Unfortunately, as I see it, it is impossible to sensibly deal with the issue without at least broadly categorising devices. This POV and other stakeholder comments were submitted during the development process of the scheme but largely ignored in favour of the views expressed by commissioned consultants.

Set-top boxes, home entertainment systems (incl TVs) and computers will probably all be covered by MEPS by 2012.

In some ways, the AGO is becoming megalomaniacal, just as the ACMA (nee ACA, nee Austel) did in the 1990's. If the question "why regulate?" is asked it seems the answer "Because we can." prevails.

Reply to
Dave

If 'security theatre' wasn't bad enough, this 'enviro theatre' is even worse.

It seems that there are now many bandwagons to jump on if the pollie has a particularly contentious piece of legislation to push through.

Reply to
swanny

" Dave the PITA Drongo "

** The process is still MASSIVELY flawed - d*****ad.
** Tells you nothing - cos it was written by morons.
** So "routine" = totally undemocratic conspiracy against the public interest ??

For the uninitiated, "regulations" go through parliament with no possibility of debate.

** Obviously YOU have no idea what the issues are.

Read this, learn something about AC power adaptors.

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** Pedantic twaddle.

** There are no "equipment makers" in Australia - d*****ad.

Only importing operations run by turds in suits ( former used car salesmen mostly) with zero tech knowledge.

They have no idea what the potential problems are or that most current generation SMPS adaptors do NOT comply with the proposed regulations.

** No fooling ???????????????

How surprising as the ONLY person commissioned to write a report proved ( when contacted) to be utterly ignorant about external PSUs. His name is Richard Collins, a self employed PV (photo voltaic) guru and motor bike nut from Umina Beach in NSW.

His " report " consists entirely of bits and pieces mindlessly lifted from other published reports.

An outrage.

** Nonsense - the AGO is a totally put up job by the Australian Greens Party, who demanded it be created and funded or they would not allow the GST laws to pass through the upper house in Canberra.

The Libs reluctantly caved in, appointed a couple of dozen bureaucrats to run the Office and now every Greenie halfwit on the planet imagines it is THEIR means of political control over the rests of us.

Sickening.

...... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

I assume that after this law is passed, one can still buy a chassis- mount transformer from DSE etc, throw it in a zippy box, with a mains cord and an AC/DC output socket same as a plugpack, and use it as they used to use the plugpack ? Will this be illegal, or legit way around the problem ? (assuming the small chassis mount transformers aren't banned, Im sure most on here will be doing this)

Will the standard 50 VA Ironcore quartz halogen transformer (since they are intended to be primarily used inside building, or shop fitting wiringl, and therefore might not be considered an "external power supply") be covered by this ? After all a significant number of them come with a factory fitted cord and lead, and provide a 12v output ? (note: I dont have much time for power wasting quartz halogen lights, but for other applications these transformers are excellent value per watt, robust and reliable, are reasonably safe by design, (enclosed screw terminals, thermally protected, double insulated, snap-top lid over the mains connections) already housed, and easy to mount with 2 screws. The ones that come with a cord are also great for beginners as a cheap/safe 12vac supply with generous output current .

Im well aware that there are electronic versions of these transformers

- but they give the shittiest, noisiest output waveform, usually in bursts of high frequency depending on load, and for that matter, need a substantial load before they even deliver the required voltage at the output !

Will portable stepdown/isolation transformers ie 240-110v be caught up in this - or will they just have to be 250va minimum - a real waste if they are just being used for imported appliances with tiny power consumption and it should be noted that with many small wattage appliances, it isnt practical to replace the internal transformer (if 110v) with a

240v equivalent as the same size/shape/mounted unit might not be available.

What happens with sensitive instrumentation, scientific/medical, and even amps such as a design published by SC some years back that needed a totally separate power supply to "eliminate noise (hum?)" from the output ? Technically - that is a "separate power supply". (I cant remember if it was more than 250va though.)

(Imagine how the poor bloody audiophiles will be affected by all this ; - not to mention the risk that a fire in a SMPS may ignite the gallons of snake oil that are no doubt in the vicinity)

Without wanting to start arguments on politics,

We have 2 parties, Labor and Liberal contesting the election. Liberal (from what we see in the news) seems to range from "not doing anything to deal with climate change" to "not rushing into everything, but moving slowly on it"

The Labor party on the other hand, seems eager to "do almost anything and everything as soon as possible" to deal with climate change.

If this proposed "transformer ban" and the recent one on "banning incandescant light bulbs" are anything to go by, for a party (Liberal) that is seen as "doing little or nothing", can you imagine what other possible electrical legislation/bans could emerge under a Labor government and its policies on this ??

I suppose one only has to look at the Beattie govt. in QLD in recent years regarding electrical licensing laws and technicians etc to get a possible answer on this.

What it all boils down to, we have a shocking state of education and knowlege - especially in technical fields. I have noticed this many times lately when it becomes impossible to even begin to explain things like power factor (when discussing CFL's and such things), base load in power stations and (for that matter) how 3 phase power and distribution operates.

What about the real wastage issues in this:

We have PC's sitting in our homes, (and usually more than ONE) often running 24 hours a day, and each pulling similar power to a 2 slice toaster (about 450w) - and unlike the toaster, will have a terrible power factor to boot. When they aren't used, they drag several watts in standby power from the mains, just like many other appliances in our homes. This is made many times worse in a lot of premises, by the power used in air-conditioning then needed (or the extra work that it does) to remove this heat from the premises

The general public will just listen to - and believe - this "transformer ban" crap, like it does most other things, and wouldn't have a collective brain big enough to understand any of this, or put any faith in any qualified or knowledgeable person (like the webpage you directed us to). There isn't any public voice to tell otherwise, as they would be a "climate change sceptic" and therefore "evil". At the end of the day, a lot of this stuff (and worse) will still be illegally imported from China, and being illegal, will be of worst quality than now - just as substandard cords and mains products come in now.

Anyone (the few who still seem to be around - that is) with any genuine intelligence, knowledge and ability in this country is regarded as a dork, wanker, up themselves, and treated like crap, and ignored, or even abused (even in this group) Meanwhile, we seem to be descending into an obese, stupid, ignorant, feral nation, and I don't think we need an expert to tell where it will end if it continues.

Reply to
kreed

Rod has done a good job. We raised similar matters such as sumnation of leakage currents, harmonics, safety and so forth in a submission to the department in 2005.

I have met him several times. He isn't ignorant but was retained as a consultant to do a particular task - that is prove that this scheme would provide xxx savings etc. Initially this scheme was intended to be adopted this year, but over-zealousness meant someone forgot to see if it would unfairly or unnecessarily disadvantage industry. Hence the same guy was then commissioned to prepare the RIS. He was never supposed to independently study and prove the need for the scheme - just to report figures (that could be used by others).

For those who may not know, the Regulatory Impact Statement (RIS) is intended to show to parliament how a proposed regulation impacts on the community and cost versus benefit. But it is really only a very large and expensive sales pitch justifying why xxx Govt department needs to flex its muscles. There will never be a RIS tabled that goes against a regulatory scheme, unless it deals with public service pay and perks.

So do something about it. Did you submit comment on this

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or comment on the RIS itself (comment closed 30 April 2007 but they would still accept late submissions of technical validity)? Did you attend the public meetings or join one of the industry bodies representing stakeholders? How about writing to members of parliament pointing out the flawed aguments in the RIS?

Reply to
Dave

If you mean as a one-off job by you as a consumer, then no problems. But you cannot make these and then sell them.

Good question. They seem to fit within the guidelines here:

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so they are probably subject to the scheme.

No they are outside the scope. The scheme applies to ELV output devices only.

Medical equipment that is registered with the TGA is exempt.

I think it is more to do with jumping on the bandwagon driven by the EU and noisy enviro-centric political movements. By riding along with these sorts of things 'we' can justify still burning fossil fuel to produce electricity. The USA has similar schemes and targets in place.

Shhhhhhhh !!! Or else we'll have a power quality regulations scheme. Just like the EU where everything has to meet the harmonics and flicker standard.

Then keep an eye on the proposed regulatory schemes and comment where approriate. I think very few people commented on the knock-on and consequential effects when it was out for public comment.

Reply to
Dave

"Dave"

** Who the f*ck is this " we " you keep alluding to ??????

Must be some high and mighty organisation, but you never say WHO.

Seems your submission was a total waste of time - right ?

Got filed in the waste paper basket, I bet.

** Collins is ignorant about external PSUs - barely seen one in his life.

So are you.

** That makes him a paid lackey - not a expert consultant.

What a SCAM !!

** That makes it nothing less than a SICKENING scam.
** I am.

Who do you think is behind most of the info on Rod Elliot's page.

** Not related to the plug pack PSU issue.
** Like most people, I was totally unaware of the proposals until April 10th, when Ross Herbert posted here about a notice he saw in a Perth newspaper.
** How about you go drop dead.

I now have a pretty damn good idea of how this scam is being played out and why - it is a precursor to the CRAZY incandescent lamp ban.

All whacko Greenie politics - no public benefit exists and no technical justification exists for either.

The head of the AGO has been in contact with Rod Elliot to-day and hopefully will refer the page to someone with half a brain - but I doubt it.

....... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

"kreed"

** Probably have to do that - if you want a low voltage AC supply in the future.

Or a DC one that does not damage electronics and infect AV links with noise

- nor pose a serious electrocution risk to the family.

** No - lighting transformers are in another category.

They do not have an "off load" condition as control is on the mains voltage side.

** No - only low voltage external PSUs. 34,000,000 of them, in Australia alone.

** Expect to see all non-rechargeable cells banned soon.
** Own a clothes drier ??

Massively wasteful when you can use * solar* and * wind power * to do the same job better.

Not a peep out of the Greenies on this so far.

Maybe they like to use them at home.

** You're kidding - right ?

In this group .........

...... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

Sigh, what ever would nutcases do without greenies to blame.

Reply to
Terryc

Reply to
kreed

Reply to
rebel

Reply to
blutt

On 8 May 2007 16:49:16 -0700, kreed put finger to keyboard and composed:

Reply to
Franc Zabkar

Another problem that can happen with many SMPS supplies is their "minimum output load" requirement. In some cases, if the load device drops below a certain current, the SMPS can shut down, cycle on/off, vary its output voltage or other highly undesirable things like this. In this case, the usual "fix" is to put a wire-wound resistor - typically 5-10w - across the output rail as a "dummy load" to ensure that there is always a minimum load there.

In an external device - particularly a generic plugpack - or inline type (laptop style) supply, that in the real world might be connected to almost anything (therefore the load can vary enormously, or even vary up and down during the device's normal use), it has to be designed to cope with this possible variation.

People who use PC power supplies (because they are cheap and readily available) for applications where they supply much less load than they are intended to supply will also cop this, same applies if the supply has multiple voltage outputs and not all are used, - where one or more rail(s) might need a minimum load on them to make the supply work properly or at all.

This process also wastes power, and the heat generated can contribute to the reduction of life of other components nearby. this effect might be worthy of inclusion on that excellent website on the topic.

Ironcore transformer based supplies don't do this (unregulated plugpacks can rise in voltage with small or no load), and regulated ones definitely not.

While on the subject of REAL and in most cases easily avoidable power wastage - some devices that have got an internal mains transformer/ supply - but the power switch on the device doesn't turn off the incoming mains, but instead turns off the secondary of the internal transformer. This means that the transformer is always on, drawing magnetising current even though the user believes that the unit is fully turned off. Most of these devices probably dont need standby power as well.

The Dick Smith T-2000 temperature controlled soldering station (now sold as the DSE T-2002) I had in the early 80's was an example of this design, and no doubt its done in other devices as well, probably to cut costs by using a cheaper switch that isn't mains rated, as well as not having to bring the mains wiring all the way to the front of the unit to a switch, insulating the terminals etc.

Reply to
kreed

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