pain of MOQs & distributors

Do you have a question? Post it now! No Registration Necessary

Translate This Thread From English to

Threaded View


Whats up with all the IC manufactures, and their ever increasing
packaging quantities? In the days  DIPs the MOQ were only 20 or 25, then
came SOP and MOQs jumped to 100 pieces (quite acceptable for small
production runs) , but now with all the micro sized SMD, such as
SOT23-8/ MSOP/uSOP, the MOQs are like 1000 or 3000 pieces. Whats the
deal with the massive jump between the sample quantities, and package
quantities ? What is supposed to happen to all the manufactures who do
small production runs and are stuck in this middle gap ?  Is it just
normally accepted a part suddenly becomes 10 times the listed price
simply because 90% of the component reel will just go to landfill ?

Understandably, none of the OZ distributors hold stock on parts unless
they have multiple customers buying them. Also, with so many ICs around,
the probability of any two customers buying the same part becomes
increasingly lower. I would like to know how other people cope with
purchasing, or am I just in the wrong country with the wrong profession ?

Adam

Re: pain of MOQs & distributors


It's the old supply and demand.

All Silicon MFGs target high dollars with their MOQ requirements,

so

High dollar cost per part... Eg FPGAs etc  = LOW MOQ

Low Dollar cost per part... EG small pin SOT23 part = HIGH MOQ

Both typically come to the same dollars


Some times there are exceptions to the rule...

Speak to "some in the know" from the Distributor - they may be able advise a
"promote" part.. that  might fit your requirement.


Otherwise companies like Farnells have a valued service ... in stock....
but you pay for it.



JG


Quoted text here. Click to load it



Re: pain of MOQs & distributors


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Well, being in Australia certainly doesn't help! :->

But this is what Farnell, RS, Digikey, Mouser etc are for.
It's not at all difficult to design most if not all of your new product
around parts available off-the-shelf in one-off QTY from these
suppliers.
If you are in a low volume market then you try to factor the higher
component cost into the product price. People complain about the high
price of Farnell etc, but really they (semis in partiular) often aren't
much more than what the distributor will charge you for low volume.
If you are in the unfortunate situation where you need low volume,
short lead times, *and* a rock bottom sell price then you've got to be
extra careful on your parts choice at design time.

Dave :)


Re: pain of MOQs & distributors



Quoted text here. Click to load it

Every time I've checked the factoryMOQ pricing vs one-off from Farnell, I've
found a ratio of very nearly FIVE.  That's the premium you pay for the privelege
of being able to buy one.

We had a particular board a while back which used a slightly hexy SMD tant.
These were ~$16 each ex Far(ke)nell.  My local parts man said "geez, I can do
them for $3.20 each" but when I asked MOQ he said either 1500 or 2500.  We
weren't about to shelve $5K-odd of one component just to get a better price for
a couple of dozen, so Farnell got the business and we stayed in business.

Re: pain of MOQs & distributors


@news.optusnet.com.au:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

I work in the middle gap too and share the pain bought on by distributor
policy. We have a branch in Asia and this brings opportunities for lower
component prices. The common myth is that you can only buy huge quantities
there, but many distributors want low volume customers too. Prices are 30-
70% of local suppliers but you have to watch freight and shipping overheead
costs closely. I find in low/medium volumes in Aus you cannot afford to be
unreasonably loyal to the distributors. Have you noticed how the number of
distributors is reducing all the time?

With the governments policies, manufacturing will die (the government
thinks this is good). But who is gonna make the stuff here for exports to
offset the balance of payments?

Re: pain of MOQs & distributors



Quoted text here. Click to load it

Chicken-and-egg.  It's as much because of THEIR policy of not warehousing
anything but sticking to factoryMOQ to cover their own arses as it is to any
lack of "loyalty" by the buyers.  If we could buy 50's instead of 2500's ex the
distributor, he'd have a flourishing business.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Iron ore, gas, uranium, Mitsubishi 380's (hang on a minute .....)

Re: pain of MOQs & distributors



Quoted text here. Click to load it

The Government doesn't seem to think we have a problem with $2 to $3
billion (negative) balance of payments each month.  What is the
National Debt (not Government debt) now?  Over $500billion and rising
all the time.

Time to break out the bananas?  Oops - sorry - they're too expensive
now!

--
Sell your surplus electronic components at
http://ozcomponents.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: pain of MOQs & distributors


Quoted text here. Click to load it

I was led to believe the debt is primarily private debt ?
  if thats the case what would you have the Government do ?
  Waste the surplus paying for someone's plasma ?

Re: pain of MOQs & distributors



Quoted text here. Click to load it

Welcome to the global economy. Aus cant manufacture, and anyone who
says we can needs to check out the operations in places like Taiwan or
China. Any who says we need to get it back should put up or shut up,
cause you will need to work for nicks. In taiwian, the plants have
apartments above for the workers. The workers over dont pull sickies,
they dont have IR reforms and they dont have unions. And even better,
they dont whinge and are happy to have a job.


As for MOQ. Well try feeding 100 smd parts into a pick and place.
PArts like resistors have an initial waste of 100+ if you dont have a
leader on your reel. Sot23 ect is the same. It is really not worth
getting prod runs manufactured in AUS, when you can get runs as small
as 100 done overseas.

Re: pain of MOQs & distributors


On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 19:58:04 +1000, The Real Andy

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Australia can and does manufacture goods and exports them to the world.
GMH
Ford
Toyota
Mitsubishi (well, at least for a while yet)
Radio Frequency Systems
Vision Systems
Daronmont Technologies
Bosch,  Delphi, and all the other companies that support them by providing
products and
services for the final products.

These are just a few. There are others, but I couldn't be bothered.

GMH and other large manuf's can export their product because they have alliances
with other companies, and the governments in some other countries would have
lowered
or eliminated some tariffs. The Monaro here is called the Vauxhall something or
other in England.

Don't you work for a engineering consultancy, or something similar Andy?
Your company would have to organise manufacturing of your products, whether
it's metalwork, plastics or electronics.

Electronics manufacturing is relative anyway. Modules (boards) get designed
here, but made overseas. The boards can be returned here to be tested/programmed
and included into final product, or it can be done overseas. It doesn't mean
that
ownership of the design goes overseas. If it costs less to manufacture, and you
can sell your product for the same price, then you've got more money to
invest on improving, or increasing the range of your product, or increasing the
size
of your company. The Feds have incentives for spending on r&d.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Well, if you've got a reel of 5K resistors, and they're about 1/10 cent each
then
it's not really worth trying to recover the first wasted 100.
Tants and low esr electrolytics are another matter.

BTW, Taiwan does have unions. Its just that they aren't as powerful as
unions here, since martial law was lifted in the mid-nineties.



Re: pain of MOQs & distributors



Quoted text here. Click to load it
The MOQ problem is precisely why I started the http://ozcomponents.com
site.  There are now about 450 different types of components listed on
there.  The more we have listed the  more you are liable to find what
you need.  So if you have some excess inventory put it up there!

I think the biggest problem now is that a lot of the so called
distributors are non-stocking (except for parts which are on schedules
for a manufacturer). So every time you want something it's MOQ, MOQ,
MOQ!

Alternatively, for very small runs, you have to go the Farnell or RS
or similar and pay the prices.  I must admit I tend not to buy from
them as I try as much as possible to stick with my stock parts in new
designs.  Even so I still end up having to buy some processors in the
hundreds and had to resort to buying a 1000 DTMF decoders in SMD
because I couldn't get them otherwise.

Another problem is with manufacture in Australia.  The big boys tend
to get it done overseas while us smaller guys have to have it done
locally and try to get parts at the right price.

I think there are places around that sell 'mini' reels of components.
They basically just take a full size reel and split and rewind onto
smaller reels.  You pay a premium of course so you may get say one
sixth of a normal reel for one half the price. I'm sure I've seen at
least one such supplier.

Alan
--
Sell your surplus electronic components at
http://ozcomponents.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: pain of MOQs & distributors


Quoted text here. Click to load it

I don't blame them really. They can't possibly stock every component,
or even just a fairly basic range, otherwise they'd become another
Farnell/RS with all the associated overhead.

What one person thinks might be a "standard" part is not a standard
part for some other guy. The distributor knows this and don't want to
get stuck with the excess that they can't move.

If they started to stock a lot of stuff then they'd have to increase
their prices to compensate, and everyone would start complaining. So
they stick with not stocking much at all.

I think the market is served excellently for small/med run stuff by
Farnell and the like, and fairly well by the dealers when you want a
lower price and higher volume. Can't have the best of both worlds.

I've found most of the time the problem is the lead time from the
factory, not the MOQ.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Farnell sell lots of mini-reels, and prices usually aren't too bad.

Dave :)


Re: pain of MOQs & distributors


Quoted text here. Click to load it

There is a wonderful little distributor here in NZ, Surface Mount
Devices: http://smd.net.nz /

they have very good pricing, and make up little reels, of as many (or
few) parts as you like. Their semiconductor range isnt huge, but they
have a *LOT* of 1206, 0805 and 0603 discretes. Every time I need a
resistor, I buy 1000 for about NZ$15.

they have also been very helpful in terms of bringing in parts -
basically they buy the reel, sell you as many as you want and add it to
their catalogue.

they also have an SMD handbook, which has all the footprints, and even
better, a big list magic part number x-ref.

Cheers
Terry

Re: pain of MOQs & distributors


Quoted text here. Click to load it

It's not very successful. In fact, it looks like a partial inventory
of someone's garage junkbox, full of 2nd hand devices. I probably
have a wider range of parts, and I've never worked in the electronics
industry.

Not that it's a bad idea, but tell me, just how many individuals have
listed parts there? It's not just *your* junkbox is it?

Re: pain of MOQs & distributors


On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 23:23:46 +1000, Clifford Heath

Quoted text here. Click to load it
Does it have to be "very" successful.  It's just a free service if
people want to use it.  And, yes, there are some "pulls" listed on
there by someone but maybe some of those things are just what someone
else needs. And what is successful?  You could say e-bay is not
successful if you look at the number of items which are put up for
auction repeatedly without selling.  Yet the items that do sell make
it "successful" - at least for those sellers!  The same applies to any
classified ads sections on both the web and in print.

Good for you having a wider range of parts.  Perhaps not everybody
else has, or can't afford to have, whether working in the industry or
not.

If you don't want to use the service then don't. I certainly wont be
upset about it.  And no, it's not just my "junk box".  In fact the few
items I do have listed on there are new (apart from some eproms).

Thanks for your words of support.

Alan

--
Sell your surplus electronic components at
http://ozcomponents.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: pain of MOQs & distributors


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Hi Allen - let's hope it continues to grow - good job! Those who frequent
this NG regularly would no doubt recall the proposal / consultation process
when you first set it up.
I think Clifford has had a charisma bypass - no offence intended Cliffy
: )





Re: pain of MOQs & distributors



Onyer Alan,
             If I didn't have so much stuff I'd be inclined
to list some of it with you.

Re: pain of MOQs & distributors



Quoted text here. Click to load it

Thanks Rob and Mark for the encouragement!  

Mark, you can list things on the site if you want, although it was
primarily set up for the guys down here.  I guess the UK is still
pretty well served with distributors.  I think there were a couple of
hundred companies in the UK in the late 80's (including my own)
whereas I doubt there are more than say 50 down here.

Regards
Alan

--
Sell your surplus electronic components at
http://ozcomponents.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: pain of MOQs & distributors


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Hi Alan, I am in Australia, that's my spam address

Re: pain of MOQs & distributors



Quoted text here. Click to load it

Ooops! Sorry! Presumption can be a dangerous thing!
--
Sell your surplus electronic components at
http://ozcomponents.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.

Site Timeline