Lead vs Lithium batteries - Large scale energy storage

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In recent times, lithium based grid scale batteries have been getting a  
lot of attention.
It seems like lead battery technology doesn?t get its fair share of  
attention. Especially in Australia where we have the required resources  
and industry for the whole product lifecycle.
When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the benefits of  
Lithium break down when compared to good'ol lead acid technology.

Re: Lead vs Lithium batteries - Large scale energy storage
Adrian wrote:
.
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of  
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** This Aussie idea makes Pb based batteries work better:  

https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/portal/news/australian-company-puts-n
ew-spin-lead-acid-batteries


.....   Phil  


Re: Lead vs Lithium batteries - Large scale energy storage
Phil Allison wrote:
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That?s a great article, too bad it?s an Australian innovation, may have  
been successful elsewhere.
The biggest proponents of grid battery storage (in Australia at least),  
are the same as proponents of renewable energy, specifically wind and  
solar. (Looking at S.A.)
It is therefore, arguable that sustainability is one of their top concerns.
Lithium batteries fall flat on their face compared to lead acid for  
sustainability.
Why are these proponents so vocal about lithium grid storage? But I  
never hear anyone advocating for lead? Not in the media, and not in  
renewable energy circles.


Re: Lead vs Lithium batteries - Large scale energy storage
Adrian wrote:
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a
re of
s
f
ts-new-spin-lead-acid-batteries
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tion, may have  
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 ** You mean that it may struggle for lack of industry funding ?  


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s.

** So you are saying that Pb based storage cells have a very high recyclabl
e component compared to lithium ?  

Same lead, goes round and round, decade after decade kind of thing.  

Nice if you made that fact more plain.  



.....  Phil  

Re: Lead vs Lithium batteries - Large scale energy storage
Phil Allison wrote:

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Agreed.
  Lead does go round and round.

The point is the public debate is broken.

Renewables often aren't compared on a level playing field to other  
energy sources.

I wound't say wind and solar are "emmissions free" on a lifecycle basis  
especially when you bolt on a battery.

Add a lithium battery to a PV farm and I wouldn't even call it  
sustainable energy. Not cost effective or environmentally friendly (The  
eco-warriors would be shocked to learn).






Re: Lead vs Lithium batteries - Large scale energy storage
Adrian wrote:

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 > benefits of Lithium break down when compared to good'ol
 > lead acid technology.

You can make just about any argument when you focus on a single aspect.

For example, plain old wood is better by at least an order of magnitude  
over *any* battery technology, when focusing only on energy density.  
And better by two orders of magnitude over lead acid batteries.

Peter


Re: Lead vs Lithium batteries - Large scale energy storage

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The Dreamliner uses a large lithium battery.

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Re: Lead vs Lithium batteries - Large scale energy storage
On 26/04/2017 16:49, Pete wrote:
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The energy density of lithium batteries is also pretty high if they  
catch fire.


Re: Lead vs Lithium batteries - Large scale energy storage
Once upon a time on usenet Chris Jones wrote:
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?

Surely it's lower than before it caught fire?

Surely it wasn't supposed to be a joke?
--  
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy  
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Re: Lead vs Lithium batteries - Large scale energy storage
On 26/04/2017 20:18, ~misfit~ wrote:
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The previous poster suggested that burning wood would release an order  
of magnitude more energy than can be stored in the same mass/volume? of  
batteries. This may or may not be true - I haven't checked. In any case  
it is not a fair comparison, unless you are also allowed to burn the  
batteries.


Re: Lead vs Lithium batteries - Large scale energy storage
Once upon a time on usenet Chris Jones wrote:
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How do you recharge wood after you've burnt it? Surely that's the better  
response?
--  
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy  
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: Lead vs Lithium batteries - Large scale energy storage
Pete wrote:
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What? This statement doesn't align with the quoted text.
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This is completely absurd! Wood makes for a bloody awful battery! Every  
body knows this! Plain, old, new or exotic wood, it makes no difference  
at all. Good grief!
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Re: Lead vs Lithium batteries - Large scale energy storage
On 27/04/2017 8:32 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
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For grid backup/storage, mass only contributes to the cost when  
transporting the batteries to the site (likely a negligible proportion  
given the overall life cycle).

Energy density is, however, a different story!
--
Cheers,

Chris.

Re: Lead vs Lithium batteries - Large scale energy storage
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seems it'd be easier to have 10 floors of lithium batteries than 10
floors of lead acid



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