how is carbon tax gonna work ?

The govt is going to give some back to the people so that they can afford the big increases that companies will charge so as to get back the tax instead of having to change their ways.

Reply to
F Murtz
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All very laudable that the Greens oppose those things, and until very recently I'd have never lumped the Greens in with the other two.

But now - and I hate to use the phrase here but it fits - the Greens have 'jumped the shark' politically, just like the Democrats did.

Fact is, the Greens are supporting this carbon tax, and for that reason alone is enough for me to lose respect for them. This tax has

*nothing* to do with reducing emissions and will be twisted/abused over time to drive prices up.

Here in Tasmania, most of our electricuty is hydro generated and yet it seems that won't be taken into consideration carbon tax-wise.

We already pay way over the true cost of electricity here simply because we have some bullshit called 'Basslink' operated by the National Grid Australia Pty Ltd - a U.K company no less. It means we've agreed to set prices in line with the mainland prices, even though it costs nothing like those prices to produce that power. This carbon tax is just more of the same kind of shit. Just like Opec.

Reply to
Jeßus

LOL... oh yeah, that's right... we have a democracy, don't we? LOL.

Reply to
Jeßus

**And that is a bad thing, how? Brown coal is the very worst way to generate electricity. Well, with the exception of burning penguins.
**I accept your inclination. Do you have some data to back that inclination?
**Really? How much will PV cells be in (say) two years?
**Geo-thermal has enormous promise to unseat coal for base load power. Hopefully, the carbon tax will make that promise into reality.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Reply to
Trevor Wilson

tants ?

and

ong as

IE: those that are productive, will have money taken from them by force of law, and it will be given to the ferals that won't work and just live off the taxpayer ? So the productive and middle class will just pay their own carbon tax, and also pay for the drone's carbon tax as well - via this "compensation" ?

In order to 'fix" a "problem" that isnt even real ???

Reply to
kreed

Not offhand. Just memories of some numbers from a while back, and bearing in mind that gas generators produce CO2 output as well, so coal fired generators only suffer part of the tax in terms of loss of competetiveness.

Not vastly cheaper, unless there's a technogy breakthrough. They've been around long enough already. There's also the issue of their requiring backup generation to cover times when they aren't generating.

It would make sense to hold off on any solar and wind investments for a few years to see whether Hot Rocks are really going to deliver, because success will show all solar and wind plants to be white elephants.

A few $Billion out of the fund should be sent in the direction of fusion research, on the grounds that even if we can manage without fusion on Austrlia ('cos we have hot rocks), the world as a whole is going to need it.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

erate

tion?

it.

Most of what isnt grubbed by pollies and their friends, or by compo to the bludgers, I doubt much will be leftover

Reply to
kreed

I was thinking specifically of the $10 billion managed by the "Clean Energy Finance Corporation".

In theory it's meant to be for new technology, but I'm far from confident that a different colour frame for PV panels, or designer blades for one's wind farm, wouldn't count.

Of course, it may be a clever sop the Greens, designed so that in practice little if any of the money will actually be paid out.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

I don't agree , it's the political process , they have to negotiate and make some compromises on their core belief . That is, compromise as long as they don't altogether abandon everything just to please the other side.

They would prefer a higher price, but it's at least a start considering the bitch fight and several leaders deposed to get here.

With all the set backs this scheme is a far better one than the one proposed by K Rudd, that handed billions in compensation to the polluters.

The democrats on the other hand betrayed their core beliefs & SOLD OUT, some in the party saw it a "natural progress" of the party to make big deals with the government to become more main stream & relevant.

It's a piss week amount and a low target of 5%, but it's a start, and eventually the polluters will clean up their act to save on paying this tax.

But there are also other incentives for the renewable industry, and I've heard a lot of these companies shares have jumped in value on the Stock market overnight .

I can't see how the carbon tax should have any influence on the cost of Hydro electricity.

I think this has more to do with privatisation of electricity than the carbon tax. We have had NSW ALP destroyed over internal fighting to fully privatise electricity grid here. It's the way of incompetent governments when they get short on cash they flog off another public asset to balance the books.

Reply to
Vox

On this one particular issue, it's just too much of a compromise for me I'm afraid. This carbon tax is the most serious threat to our country that I can ever recall. There is NO way it will stay in it's current incarnation. Its just the tip of the iceberg.

They've also compromised on a number of other issues, now that they've gone 'mainstream'.

Actually, I just realised another reason why I'm no longer a Greens supporter - and that is here in Tas we have a Labor/Greens coalition govt. Lately there has been a number of issues that simply have left us (as in people of all political persuasions) shaking our heads.

Only last week they finally backed down from closing 20 regional schools here. The reason for the planned closure was to save $28 million... over 4 years. I won't go into detail, but it was a stunningly stupid idea and would have decimated many vibrant communities, people would have choice but to move. Businesses were in danger of closing, etc. Hundreds of people dropped everything, their jobs, businesses, just to fight it. As mentioned, they finally backed down. The education minister is Nick McKim - a Green. Our genius of a premier referred to the whole nightmare as "a leaning experience". These people in power are just simply worse than useless.

I have no faith in any of the major parties. Budget deficit? No problem, lets sell off some infrastructure! Yes, just brilliant...

Totally agree, except the Greens are well on their way down the exact same path, though I will concede they are likely to survive it.

Look, I'm all for reducing pollution (remember that word?), but this carbon tax concept aint going to do it. I'll wager the very people it's meant to bring into line will end up actually benefiting from it. Wait until it becomes linked into a world-wide system. Control of essential services like electricity and water should never be taken away from us, but that's what's happened.

Our water is next, in fact the world's water supply is being bought up by corporations. It's the new oil.

'carbon' appears to be such a big boogeyman, yet I see nothing mentioned about plastic, or overpopulation.

It shouldn't. but it looks like we'll be paying the tax regardless. Funny that.

Yep, I was just citing another example where we (Tasmanians) were told this was to be of great benefit to us, when in fact it is precisely the opposite. I see the carbon tax being in the same category.

Yup. Can you even imagine our federal and state governments behaving so unethically say, 30 years ago? Ditto most anywhere else in the western world for that matter.

The stuff they do these days, as a matter of course, would have been completely out of the question back then. Capitalism is sick... and needs a major overhaul. I think things need to get a whole lot worse before everybody finally wakes up and gets on the same page.

Reply to
Jeßus

A carbon tax will not work and will be counterproductive.

The technology for renewable energy doesn't exist. The most efficient form of renewable energy could produce power at about 20c to 25c/ KW.Hr.

This compares to 5c for thermal brown coal. Nuclear maybe 10c when disposal of waste and decomissioning is considered.

The Germans spent 70 billion euro to generate 0.2% of their energy needs (2% of their electricity needs, about 6% during the day)

Rouughtly to gurantee 1kW of power continiuous one would need

1 For wind $10,000 investment in wind turbines, gas turbine backup and some energy storage. 2 For solar about $35,000 3 For a combined cycle gas turbine plant, $600.00

Assuming 5% payback over 20 years, 8% interest per year inclusive of profit, 2.5% maintenance and 2.5% running costs we end up haveing to add 18% to get the annual cost.

We just need to throw a lot of money at R+D.

The best result will be to push conventional technology: for instance hydrograsification of coal (80% efficient) to make natural gas and the new 61% efficient combined cycle gas turbines from GE and Siemens which can ramp to full power in 30 minutes. Install gas to more houses.

That should halve the CO2 output and the capital cost probably 1/10th of wind power.

ie a 35% power station emits twice as much CO2 per unit of power than as a 48% power stations.

And what about encouraging more fuel efficient cars?

They'd find a way of costing loss of forrest and outgasing of rotting vegetation.

And now they want to be compensated.

Reply to
Eunometic

At least they tried to do the right thing, and guess which economy in Europe is the strongest ?????

All are short-sighted excuses- not solutions. The fossil fuels are a temporary resource that we are wasting because of the short-sighted attitudes no doubt due to bribery and corruption.

You have to make 'em cheap to buy and even cheaper to run, and then overcome the bastards who are making millions out of flogging oil.....

Reply to
yaputya

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More like "which ship is sinking the slowest" ?. They will just slide into oblivion if they do things like this rather than providing affordable energy. Nuclear is a far better choice - if you still believe in this C02 stuff.

That sounds more realistic.

ubt

] Bribery and corruption - yes IE:

Fake oil shortage scares manufactured by the oil companies in order to drive up prices through artificial scarcity.

If there were viable alternatives to oil, then the US would not need to be invading every middle east country in these illegal wars, on behalf of the oil companies, (paid for through your tax dollars though) who simply want monopoly control of all the oil, and the oil market to charge whatever they want.

If you take a look at how it works, big oil (especially BP as it holds patents and has interests in many solar/wind technologies and products) are pushing hard for the carbon tax so people will be pressured to buy these and generate revenue. This means they stand to profit out of it, some say a massive profit, even compared to their oil profits

As oil is an essential resource that they control, they can up prices even more, and blame it on the carbon tax, and the fake "environmental problems" associated with it BP also funds green groups like WWF, who also help with price fixing by pushing for certain oil fields not to be used, (usually in western countries) this also helps limit oil supply, keep smaller players out of the market and further push the "artificial scarcity"/high prices scam.

These people and those behind them have the money and power to buy any government, media, (to control public perception and push propaganda advantageous to their interests) research, education and everything you rely on.

Nothing is allowed to be done that does not profit these people and increase their power.

Reply to
kreed

I agree labour are idiots and I won't vote for them for the same reasons as you. Why are we spending billions to effectively watch TV via the internet? However the carbon tax is the first thing labour have done that I have liked. It shows some real balls doing something the voters obviously don't like but that we really need. We do need something to slow down carbon use and help encourage green energy. It's something I've wanted most of my life. The problem with taking fuel out of the ground is that you are effectively getting it for free, you don't have to purchase the coal or oil off anyone. If you can get it out of the ground for 1c per litre then it can be sold for 10c a litre. There's no incentive to do it any other way.

Reply to
Mickle

It SHOULD, and all the ivory-tower-completely-out-of-touch-with-the realities-of-running-a-business dreamers are banking on that.

Over on the other side of town where real businesses operate the response is clear - adapt or die. So added input costs will appear as added output costs - prices of outputs will rise to keep the balance sheet balanced. Business Accounting 101. Any moves to lower-emission technologies will be about as significant as a snail's fart in a cyclone.

Last night on (ABC) Lateline a spokesman for the energy industry gave some real numbers. In its first year this will add $4.6B to the cost of generating electricity in Oz. It was clear that *will* be passed on, and by the time you add on the retail margins thats about $200 p.a. per man/woman/child.

That's just ONE affected commodity. Transport costs come under multiple pressures - the fuel, most consumables, drivers' pay (their COL is being hit too). Supermarkets will get hit with rises in commodities, transport, electricity, water, ....

Those same dreamers reckon a $200 shopping trolley's contents will only go up 80c . I want some of what they're smoking!

Reply to
who where

you wont be liking it when you start paying more for energy... they just think of other ways to screw money out of ya,,.,, carbon tax got nothing to do with makin cleaner air.. you still dont get it , do you ,, you can MAKE AS MUCH POLLUTION AS YOU WANT AS LONG AS YOU PAY FOR IT.

instead of paying carbon tax , would nt it be better for companies to be told to reduce the amount of pollution they make by a certain time or they`lll be fined ?

Reply to
no one

There are two completey separate issues - "global warming" etc and the carbon tax. Regardless of one's stance on the former, the carbon tax needs to be considered solely and entirely on what beneficial impact it will have on the environment.

which is fsck-all.

Reply to
who where

We don't need the ridiculous scam tax or NBN.. Sucking up to global banks and corporations who want this tax, and funded this scam and doing their dirty deeds as well as pushing this debunked C02 garbage does not take balls.

It's cowardly, and it is selling out Australians for the sake of personal gain. Lying to 20 million Aussies that you arent' bringing it in in order to get votes is despicable. ( I was going to say selling out your country, but Gillard isn't an Australian in any way whatsoever)

Having balls would be exposing it, coming clean on it and stopping it. That is what is brave, heroic and self sacrificing for your country and future generations. That takes real balls. People who sell out cheap are the lowest of the low.

The only way to resolve this is to make the carbon pricing system voluntary, or at least an "opt out". This way it keeps both sides happy.

For example, anyone who wants it, gets a card they can swipe when they buy anything, and it can add the cost of the "carbon" to the product. It can then go directly into funding "alternatvies", but not into donations for political parties, advertising, lobbying or anything that would force these views onto others.

This is the only way that is fair and more importantly respects the rights and freedoms of all Australians on both sides

Reply to
kreed

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$20-30 increase I would believe, once the full impact filters through.

How about they just put a donation tin on the checkout and make you put in 40c per $100 spend then ? That will resolve it completely.

Unless they are prepared to put their money where their mouths are, and be fully liable either for damages, or removal of the tax if it exceeds this amount, then it is the same load of bullshit from the same bullshit artist that brought you

"there will not be a tax on carbon under any government I lead"

Reply to
kreed

More like "which ship is sinking the slowest" ?. They will just slide into oblivion if they do things like this rather than providing affordable energy. Nuclear is a far better choice - if you still believe in this C02 stuff.

** The Krauts have consigned the NUKE industry to the waste bin. Despite having one of the largest NUKE programs in the world. it is obvious that the costs vs risks has shifted the political goalposts recently. That is the result of so-called democracy - stupid people tend to vote for stupid people. (Avoid the MAD MONK - he is a religious fruitcake that belongs in the ISLAM category of nutters. Catholics are just as stupid as Muslims - they believe in imaginary things.) BTW I favour NUKEs, nuclear power is a logical development in the history of science that is being undermined by emotional arguements. IMHO the recent developments just show there is a serious problem with the so-called democratic system. Too many idiots get to vote, while the true science is politicalised.
Reply to
yaputya

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