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Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
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  Prove that it will ?
  oH the right you can't just as the govco has failed

  Prove that Abbott's, discredited, taxpayer funded system will be
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  No need to , help will gain office on the promise of removal
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  Oh wake up twevy
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  Historically they don't and it wont
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--
X-No-Archive: Yes


Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
ummmm people against the carbon tax is 69% !!  theres no way it gonna go
thru !!



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Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
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Some related things regarding Australians, tax and opinions are here:

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rp/2003-04/04rp13.htm

E.g.

Table 2: If the Government had a choice between reducing taxes or spending more
on social services, which do you think it should do?
                                1987    1990*   1993    1996    1998    2001
                                %       %       %       %       %       %
Strongly favour less tax        43.7    35.0    37.5    40.8    33.3    27.1
Mildly favour less tax          21.6    22.5    18.5    16.3    13.5    14.8
Favour less tax                 65.3    57.5    56.0    57.1    46.8    41.9
Depends                         19.8    31.3#   26.8    26.1    27.5    28.5
Mildly favour social services   7.6     7.1     10.0    9.4     12.4    14.5
Strongly favour social services 7.2     4.1     7.3     7.4     13.3    15
Favour social services          14.8    11.2    17.3    16.8    25.7    29.5

---
Scientists are always changing their story and as a Conservative, I
have no tolerance for ambiguity.  It proves that all science is lies
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Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
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The problem is people have no right to vote on this  - we do not have
citizen initiated referendums,
or other mechanisms to stop or remove unpopular legislation
Only the politicians vote they do NOT have to listen to you.

Many would have voted for gillard for saying
"There will be no tax on carbon under any government I lead"

If she had promised a carbon tax instead, Its very unlikely she would
have been elected.



Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?

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LOL... oh yeah, that's right... we have a democracy, don't we? LOL.


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Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
ha, !! not that it WILL,  you say it      SHOULD....

 CLEARLY , YOU HAVE NO IDEA....

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Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
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**The carbon tax will go through. It SHOULD reduce the amount of CO2 emitted
by Australian industry, because industry will attempt to lower their costs
of doing business, by choosing lower emission technologies, processes and
power sources. Do you have your head permantly up your arse?

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**Prove it. Prove that Abbott's, discredited, taxpayer funded system will be
better. That's your choice, after all.

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**Clearly, you have no idea.

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**If the government has chosen the numbers correctly, then business will
choose lower emissions methods and CO2 pollution will fall.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
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In practice, though, industry's scope for doing that is limited. In the
power sector, we will perhaps see some movement from brown coal to black
coal.

Beyond that, the question is whether the tax is high enough to cause a
shift from coal to natural gas (in combined cycle gas turbines) for
baseload generation. I'm inclined to doubt it, particularly as any move
away from coal towards natural gas will cause the price of the latter to
rise.

There may be a modest move towards CCGT for peak loads, as the tax makes
it somewhat beneficial to build CCGT plant despite its sitting idle for
more of each day than current economics dictate.

The tax won't directly increase the use of solar power or wind because
both of those remain hopelessly uneconomic. Some of the Greenie fund may
end up being converted into those useless systems.

Hot rocks become more attractive, as evidenced by Geodynamics 31% rise
today (and I kind of anticipated that, and could have made a tidy profit
if I hadn't assumed the tax had already been discounted :( ).

Sylvia.


Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
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**And that is a bad thing, how? Brown coal is the very worst way to generate
electricity. Well, with the exception of burning penguins.

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**I accept your inclination. Do you have some data to back that inclination?

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**Really? How much will PV cells be in (say) two years?

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**Geo-thermal has enormous promise to unseat coal for base load power.
Hopefully, the carbon tax will make that promise into reality.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
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Not offhand. Just memories of some numbers from a while back, and
bearing in mind that gas generators produce CO2 output as well, so coal
fired generators only suffer part of the tax in terms of loss of
competetiveness.

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Not vastly cheaper, unless there's a technogy breakthrough. They've been
around long enough already. There's also the issue of their requiring
backup generation to cover times when they aren't generating.

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It would make sense to hold off on any solar and wind investments for a
few years to see whether Hot Rocks are really going to deliver, because
success will show all solar and wind plants to be white elephants.

A few $Billion out of the fund should be sent in the direction of fusion
research, on the grounds that even if we can manage without fusion on
Austrlia ('cos we have hot rocks), the world as a whole is going to need it.

Sylvia.

Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
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Most of what isnt grubbed by pollies and their friends, or by compo to
the bludgers, I doubt much will
be leftover

Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
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I was thinking specifically of the $10 billion managed by the "Clean
Energy Finance Corporation".

In theory it's meant to be for new technology, but I'm far from
confident that a different colour frame for PV panels, or designer
blades for one's wind farm, wouldn't count.

Of course, it may be a clever sop the Greens, designed so that in
practice little if any of the money will actually be paid out.

Sylvia.


Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 08:32:15 +1000, "Trevor Wilson"

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It SHOULD, and all the ivory-tower-completely-out-of-touch-with-the
realities-of-running-a-business dreamers are banking on that.

Over on the other side of town where real businesses operate the
response is clear - adapt or die.  So added input costs will appear as
added output costs - prices of outputs will rise to keep the balance
sheet balanced.  Business Accounting 101.  Any moves to lower-emission
technologies will be about as significant as a snail's fart in a
cyclone.

Last night on (ABC) Lateline a spokesman for the energy industry gave
some real numbers.  In its first year this will add $4.6B to the cost
of generating electricity in Oz.  It was clear that *will* be passed
on, and by the time you add on the retail margins thats about $200
p.a. per man/woman/child.

That's just ONE affected commodity.  Transport costs come under
multiple pressures - the fuel, most consumables, drivers' pay (their
COL is being hit too).  Supermarkets will get hit with rises in
commodities, transport, electricity, water, ....

Those same dreamers reckon a $200 shopping trolley's contents will
only go up 80c .  I want some of what they're smoking!

Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
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$20-30 increase I would believe, once the full impact filters through.

How about they just put a donation tin on the checkout and make you
put in 40c per $100 spend then ?
That will resolve it completely.

Unless they are prepared to put their money where their mouths are,
and be fully liable
either for damages, or removal of the tax if it exceeds this amount,
then it is the same load of bullshit from the same bullshit artist
that brought you

"there will not be a tax on carbon under any government I lead"

Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
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It isn't meant to stop pollution, and has nothing to do with the
environment (most environmental legislation is not about the
environment)
It is about grabbing money, and removing competition
for favoured big businesses and powerful multi-national corporations.

You will find that certain big businesses that are in bed with the
Government
will be granted exemptions, and their competition won't.  This will
wipe out the
competition and deliver all the business to the Government favoured
multi-national.





Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
you are 100% correct !!!!!!!!!!!


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It isn't meant to stop pollution, and has nothing to do with the
environment (most environmental legislation is not about the
environment)
It is about grabbing money, and removing competition
for favoured big businesses and powerful multi-national corporations.

You will find that certain big businesses that are in bed with the
Government
will be granted exemptions, and their competition won't.  This will
wipe out the
competition and deliver all the business to the Government favoured
multi-national.






Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
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I thought it was largely a pretext for redistributing wealth from
Liberal voters to Labor voters while placating the latte-set greenie
vote in the hope that they'll vote Labor next time.

The environment? What's that?

Sylvia.

Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
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The govt is going to give some back to the people so that they can
afford the  big increases that companies will charge so as to get back
the tax instead of having to change their ways.

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IE: those that are productive, will have money taken from them by
force of law, and
it will be given to the ferals that won't work and just live off the
taxpayer ?  So the productive and middle class
will just pay their own carbon tax, and also pay for the drone's
carbon tax as well - via this "compensation" ?

In order to 'fix" a "problem" that isnt even real ???

Re: how is carbon tax gonna work ?
On Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:07:06 -0700 (PDT), kreed

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There are two completey separate issues - "global warming" etc and the
carbon tax.  Regardless of one's stance on the former, the carbon tax
needs to be considered solely and entirely on what beneficial impact
it will have on the environment.

which is fsck-all.

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