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Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)


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The problem is that there isnt anything else thats affordable at the moment.

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As long as the vehicle isn't modified (safety wise) there shouldn't be a
problem with rego. Brakes are a problem though, they must be power assisted
which means that you either get a pre power assist brake model or install a
vacuum pump. The other problem is where do you fit all them batteries?



Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)



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I've been reading the last couple of days and there's some great
batteries coming out.  One was a new type of lead acid that's half the
weight - and cheaper than lead acid I think.  Another one I saw was
like a sandwich of tin foil with what looks like ribbon cable for
terminals (can't remember the name of it now), but it was lightweight,
high current/capacity and only lost 1% capacity after 1000 recharge
cycles.

Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)


snipped-for-privacy@COLDhotmail.com says...

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The best lithium-ion variants have an energy density approaching to
that of petrol, ie 9000 Watt hours per litre or for the battery
per kilo...

Its possible that they might get even better, and even at that point
that much energy in something the size of a brick could be pretty
dangerous - the instantaneous discharge of that much equivalent
electrical energy in that package if it were punctured could be
disastrous.

However, even if we did have a one kilo brick that could store
say 5000 Watt hours of energy, it still needs to get charged plus
the amortised energy (CO2) of making it in the first place is
not to be sneezed at, plus later on the cost of recycling it...

Seems the Carbon-Hydrogen bond is the best energy carrier and probably
why we function so well because of it... <sigh>

Throw away the Oxygen-Hydrogen one, its too low energy and too dangerous
and any politcally motivated group that builds H2 buses just hasnt
done their basic physics and risk assessment analysis.

Side note not many people are aware of.
There is more hydrogen and more energy in a litre of petrol than there
is in a litre of liquid hydrogen, even if you could get it as a liquid.

The trick would be to retain the energy density of the carbon-hydrogen
bond and recycle the carbon, nature has been doing it for billions of
years and has never had to go the nuclear route. I think we can do the
same in far less time and in fact there are probably ways to use the
CO2 produced in the short terms as a major component of building materials
something nature has also been doing for billions of years...

So wouldnt it be incumbent upon us as caretakers of the planet to:-

a.  Use liquid fuels as the infrastructure for distribution and use
    in internal combustion engines is already in place and by that paradigm
    I mean renewable liquid fuels.
b.  Determine how to extract CO2 from the atmosphere to reduce the
    greenhouse effect
c.  Sequester CO2 temporarily from large power projects which have the
    momentum of using fossil sources.
d.  Convert this CO2 into building material, presumably to construct
    infrastructure for a and c above.
e.  Engineer biological organisms to implement b and d above, again this
    is something that nature has been doing for billions of years.


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Regards
Mike
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Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)


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Hold on while Allen goes down the back shed and knocks something up. Sounds
like a real good DIY project that anyone can tackle.



Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)



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HAH!  ; )

Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)



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Its not that hard, well as it appears,  taking each item in turn:-

a.   Is already in place, minor changes might be to add greater capacity for
     oxygenated fuels like alcohol and methanol, lots of plastics and industrial
     plants already use and produce those chemicals so the methods of storage
     and transport are well known, consider this part already done for most
     part.

b.   Nature has already been doing this for ages, there is a huge ocean sink,
     although this is harder it may well be the lowest priority item in
     comparison with the others. Genetic engineering of fast growning trees
     such as Pawlonia for example along with kelps and other seaweeds is going
     to bear more fruit <pun> than much we can do on land. Kelp is is pretty
     high demand not just for toothpaste.

c.   Sequestering isnt also that hard though there are better places in the
     word for it than others depending on geological factors. Not difficult
     to separate O2 from N2 from air before feeding it to a combustion chamber
     for producing heat for electricity, the resulting gas is mostly CO2 and
     H2O, they are also easy to separate. We need political will along with
     an alternative economic model that includes serious use of carbon credits.

d.   We have heaps of sulphates in the ground already, if it were possible
     to strip the SO2 from Calcium, Potassium and Sodium and replace it with
     a carbonate then we have a heap of limestone, a great deal of sulphates
     are used in inductrial processes though I'm not sure how much mroe than
     carbonates. Its an option worth checking though. I also understand there
     is research into methods to produce composites, ie Bond carbonates to
     existing sulphates, there is a whole area of inorganic complexes that
     may well be a suitable way to absorb CO2 and use the product as a
     structural material, not an area I am expert in but having seen odd
     inorganics for the last 30 years I think its worth pursuing.

e.   Genetic engineering is growing by leaps and bounds, also need political
     will to pursue this with more gusto perhaps along with a focus.

All the above needs a serious improvement in basic along with advanced
education, I am just not use that the OBE system is focused along any
lines to generate intellectual muscle to address the above points <sigh>


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Regards
Mike
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Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)


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Rubbish - out by 2 orders of magnitude.
100WH/kg is about the state of the art:
<http://sbir.gsfc.nasa.gov/SBIR/successes/ss/7-015text.html .

Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)


says...
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As I said the 'best' are approaching that of petrol, what you have
found on public access is not the best, not everything that is in
development or commercially demonstrable to a group of investors
is going to be necessarily presented for public exposure...


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Mike
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Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)


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It's noteworthy that you can't actually provide any *evidence*
that someone's made a 100x breakthrough - though no doubt some
have tried to extract money from sucker investors with such
rabid claims.

BTW, I did change the units to WH/Kg, instead of WH/l; 100WH/Kg is
240WH/l in this technology. So you only need a 37x (!) breakthough.
Get real, how likely is *that* though?

I'm afraid chemical storage is with us for the forseeable. The
person who finds a way to make money using nuclear electricity
or some other source to synthesize alcohols (or other cleanish
liquid fuel) will be the next energy trillionaire.

Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)


says...
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Dont have to provide any evidence, if you dont accept my figure
that variants of lithium ion approach the storage of petrol then
thats your problem however, think about this:-

10 years ago NiMH acheived 100Watt Hours per Kg in pilot prod. and have
been on the market for a few years now. You can buy 900mA AAA cells
which weigh around 11gms, do the sums.

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Lets look at another example,
So a 37x improvement in clock rate over 12 years doesnt seem possible
does it but, did it happen for some processors... ?

Or how about ram chip storage densities etc etc

10 years ago, Lithium Ion was just starting out in pilot prod also,
I will leave it up to you to work out the energy density from then till
now - so your 37x breakthrough is looking a bit more realisable when
it drops to around 10x and that is approaching petrol - like I said :)

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There are a whole range of material technologies far beyond the
scope of this group and many are not and will not be published on
the net for some time to come, especially if they are near pilot
production stage along with concomittent commercial issues etc

Suggest you not be so narrow when it comes to chemical storage,
you wouldnt exclude petrol or other liquid fuels that store
chemical potential energy. 9000 Watt hours for petrol, there are
others which are almost as safe and they are at 20,000 watt hours,
suffice it to say they dont directly produce electricity but then
you'd agree any storage technology faces downline conversions to
other forms or at the least regulation issues and that means the
reliance to focus solely on electrical misses the overal point
of energy management, delivery and amortisation...

I dont have to prove a thing, you need to exercise patience in
context with various other breakthroughs that routinely surround
you for the last 10 to 15 years <shrug>


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Regards
Mike
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Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)


snipped-for-privacy@COLDhotmail.com says...

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You can calculate it, though you need the indicated inflation rate
for each year, you cant just average the rates. We've had years
where inflation was 15%, now its about 5%, it all is subject to
compounding, easy to raise things to a power. Similar to this:-

If I put 1000 in bank for 10 years at 5% then how much would I
have at the end if I dont take anything out etc. So iirc:-

Final Amount = 1000 x 1.05 ^(10)






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Mike
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Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)


snipped-for-privacy@iinet.net.au says...

ooorppppsss - Somehow news reader thinks I pressed ctrl-s... <guh>

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Sorry for break, here is the rest of my post:-

Some think the real inflation rate is closer to 8%, then put those
figures in and you get, for one dollar:-

$2.16 = $1.00 x (1.08)^10

You can interpret this as:-

$2.16 of money now is the same buying power as $1 was 10 years ago if the
average inflation rate is approx 8%. So from the way this exponent
works its clear that even a slight rise in the inflation rate propogates
through to a large loss of value. Or if you use it for income from
interest - a high capital value...

The 'estimate' you have for 23 years can be worked backwards to arrive
at the average inflation rate, if you see this as a halving of value then:-

    $2 = $1 x (rate)^23

  log 2 = 23 x log rate

  log rate = (log 2) /23

  log rate =  0.013

therefore:-

     rate  =  1.031

In other words, there is no f..... way that the inflation rate has been 1%
for the last 23 years !

So I stand by my observation that the value of money 'roughly' halves
each 10 years - more or less by not much ;)


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You can tweak your car to use a bit less fuel, drive it very gently when
its still warming up, tweak the AFM to make it a little leaner, keep
your tyres at highest practicable pressure, keep windows closed where
possible to reduce drag over 70 Km/hr, use air con only sporadically,
make sure your fuel system is as new with no evaporative leaks etc

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Not going to go up that much though, cost of gas is still very very low,
the differential will mean the average fixed price for oil wont be that
much more than it has been for last 30 years - taking inflation into
account, there will be speculation and swings but the average wont change
much until gas also goes up a lot, that is a bit unlikely.

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The money in conversion wouldnt be worth it

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Better to use biodiesels, home produced fuels, trailer of wood and
wood gas production such as was used during 2nd world war, that method
was actually quite effective, though meant dragging a trailer around,
maybe these days wood gas fueling can be miniaturised a lot.

<chuckle>

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Regards
Mike
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Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)



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Yes, have seen pictures of these during my research.  What freedom we
give up for the sake of convenience!

Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)


snipped-for-privacy@COLDhotmail.com says...
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har har, I just had a thought, if we did use wood directly with some
miniaturised gas extractor it certainly would dampen Howard's plan to
tax alternative fuels, can you imagine a senate session where the various
types of wood come up for discussion, <erotic puns aside>

<chuckle>


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Mike
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Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)


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If money halves every 10 years, petrol should be approx $0.96 per litre
since the mid seventies.

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Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)


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Halves in value, means twice as many dollars for the same amount...!

See my other post re calculating using exponent on % inflation...

This is why petrol (and oil) is actually cheaper now - in real terms.



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Mike
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Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)


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Yes, I based my calculation on that. In 1976, I was paying just under 0.11
per litre. So, in 1986, it should have been 0.24 /L, then in 1996 it should
have been 0.48 /L, therefore 2006 it should be 0.96 cents per litre.


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Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)



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So you are saying the average inflation rate between 1976 and 1986 was 8%,
I think it was more like 15% or thereabouts but, even it was an average of 8%
there were wild swings to 15% or more, this cannot be averaged as its an
exponential calculation :(

Also between 1986 and 1996, I seem to recall it was more like 10%

However, since 1996 the inflation rate has been between 5 and 9% more or
less, I also recall the petrol price was around 80c/L, so doubling that
puts it at $1.60/L which is more than the $1.32 I paid yesterday and that
was the basis for my comment.

My statement of doubling each 10 years is a broad brush estimate and I
went on the last 10 years or so in that petrol iirc, was around 75 to 80c/L.

Anything further back from that, when we had quite a lot higher inflation
really needs a year by year calculation as an average just wont work because
averaging the rate then applying it to the exponent calculation wont result
in the same figure as taking it year by year when there are wilder swings,
its pretty clear why thats the case - compounding...

The other complication is that the government added parity pricing, funnily
enough that seems to have returned it (petrol) to correlation with inflation,
prior to that it was lagging behind significantly and migth well have been
undervalued in psychological terms, had it been done earlier the truer cost
of the fuel from the perspective of long term environmental damage might
well have been factored in.

Petrol is still far less in Perth than it is in Europe.

There are always going to be heaps of anomalies, the general case is only
sufficient for the odd pub debate not so much for detailled analysis but
then the detailled analysis isnt that hard either...


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Mike
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Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)


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No, I was commenting on YOUR statement:

"Inflation, value of money roughly halves each 10 years"



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Re: Building an electric... bike!? (electric motors)


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Yes and my elaboration is that - based on the last 10 years of inflation
rates it is confirmed with a bit of math, as for the previous years its
worse, thats why petrol is cheaper now in real terms.

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Mike
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