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Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget
On 2/08/2013 6:13 AM, Baron wrote:
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certainly needs some trimming

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Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget

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It's the usenet version of verbal diarrhoea....



Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget
On 2/08/2013 6:44 AM, yaputya wrote:
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yes your response is nonsensical in my post is accurate and yours is shite

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Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget

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The author presents a good case based on his position as a major
Retail Service Provider. He is advocating handing over a larger share
of the cost, and therefore the profit, to RSPs. The current NBN Co
Network Terminating Unit has four ports and can offer a choice of RSPs
but Hackett wants to alter the system so that there is only a single
RSP and even proposes that the RSP should supply the NTU. While
Hackett is probably right and the extra ports will be largely unused
they provide a unique opportunity for imaginative extra services. The
provision of a free government (and other) services port seems an
excellent idea. Eliminating the POTS ports would also channel the
supply of telephone services via an RSP whereas the NBN Co design
allows a telephone-only connection using the customers existing
telephones.  

His proposal to revert to the original 7 points of interconnect also
limits competition. I believe the additional points of interconnect
were added at the instigation of the ACCC because they would allow
more localised service providers and to avoid making existing telco's
fibre useless. They do increase the costs for a national RSP.

The costings that Hackett presents are alarming but he does not
provide an estimate of any savings to NBN Co of his changes let alone
an estimate of the added costs to the consumer. I agree that the cost
of the NBN should be tax payer subsidised. I don't see that
transferring a small fraction of those costs to the consumer via the
RSP is a benefit especially if it limits access to the NBN.  

Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget
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  Huh!? I don't think he's advocating any such thing. Yes, he advocates
to lower the costs (of *all* the steps/parts), but not by handing a part
of the cost to the RSPs. *hich share of which cost(s) do you think he is
handing over to the RSPs?

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  I think he gives excellent arguments why implementing an *additional*,
*very* costly, network, is a stupid idea. All current networks, happily
carry non-RSP services. There is no reason to do it in another way for
the NBN. As he says (have you read his further comments?), any service
which does not go the [TCP/]IP route is brain-dead from the start.

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  Like any current network, the NBN can do "a telephone-only connection
using the customers existing telephones". And yes, there will be a SP
for that connection, but that that SP may or may not be called an "RSP",
is just semantics.

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  He *said* that he could not give such an estimate, because the needed
(NBNCo) information is not availale.

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  Again, he is *not* propopsing to "transfer[ring] a small fraction of
those costs to the consumer RSP". The whole point of his proposal is to
*lower* *all* cost parts.

  I think you should 'watch' (listen and read) the presentation again.

  And notice the vendor (i.e. Alcatel) lock-in issue! Absurd!

Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget


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Yes he is, particularly with the RSP providing the NTU
with nothing in the home provided by the NBN at all.

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The hardware in the home/premises.

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Yes he is with the hardware in the house/premises.

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No, his proposal does not lower the cost of running the fiber
down the streets for example.

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You too.



Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget
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  Nope. In his proposal, there will be *no* NTU. The RSP will supply a
GPON *router* (10:54- in the presentation, the black box in the
picture), which he says the RSP will probably supply anyway.

  So there's less cost - no NTU, no battery backup, etc., the white
stuff in the picture - and no extra cost.

  See the presentation from 10:33-12:52.

[More of the same deleted.]

Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget

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That?s not correct.

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And he is saying that that will be the NTU.

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Yes.


No, what the RSP supplies will cost a little more with his approach.

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That?s where I got it from.  


Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget
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  I obviously meant no *NBN* NTU. A course there will always be *a* NTU.

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  That will be "the" NTU in his proposal, not "the" NTU in the NBN's
plan.

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  He says that most RSPs would supply a GPON router anyway. If I were an
RSP, I would that too. If there's a problem, just take the fibre from
the NBN NTU and plug it in in the RSP's GPON router. That way you can
rule out the (local)NBN stuff as a cause.

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Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget


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What I said.

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I doubt that?s correct with RSPs competing aggressively.

Plenty would go with the lowest cost with the current NBN NTUs in place.

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But fuck up the TV distribution when you do that.

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Only if what the RSP provides can do that.

And only with those who have paid the higher price for
what the RSP provides instead of using their own device too.

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Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget

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If all the facilities in an NBN Co NTU were deleted it made no sense
to me (or Hackett) for NBN Co to supply the NTU at all. He argues that
GPON routers, possibly with a POTS port, would best be supplied by the
RSP according to the services on offer.
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Well no, he merely argues that it would have been cheaper to omit the
extra ports. He accepts that some consumers may have a need for the
extra ports. Since NBN Co have already paid for the design of the
complex NTU and if NBN Co are going to supply the NTU it seems
unlikely that there would be significant savings in not supplying the
complex ones to everybody.

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I don't understand what you mean here. How can I obtain services over
my connection that my RSP does not retail?
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Would a mass market RSP provide the microsecond access to stock
trading that a stock broker requires or would that require a separate
port? They certainly don't offer that now.
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I assume, possibly incorrectly, that when Telstra switch off their
copper network they will be able to seamlessly plug my telephones into
the NTU. I don't know of an [RI]SP that currently offers this.

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I am reminded of the friends who say "you are not listening" when they
mean "you are not agreeing".
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No, no. It's not lock in, it is a "supplier partnership". That is
variously regarded as a way to screw the supplier, screw the customer
or as a genuine advantage to both. NBN Co have repeatedly used it as
the first of those but Alcatel is big enough to look after themselves.



Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget
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  See my responses to Rod Speed. Simon Hackett says that most RSPs will
supply GPON routers anyway. So NBNCo delivers less (and saves money) and
the RSP supllies what they would supply anyway, so no cost going from
NBNCo tp the RSP.

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  Huh!? Don't you think that supplying and installing *millions* of
(NBN) NTUs and battery backup systems is just a tad more expensive than
supplying and installing none!?

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  Your RSP supplies you with an *Internet connection*, *you* determine
how and for what you use that Internet connection. A service provider
can provide services to you over your Internet connection, i.e. like TV,
VOIP, music, security, <whatever>.

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  The providers of such (stock broker) would do exactly the same as they
do now: If a consumer-grade Internet connection isn't sufficient, they
will either demand or supply a business-grade one.

  Listen/read again (to) Simon Hackett's presentation. One of his
important points is that he takes the urban legend "magic" (non-)argument
out of the NBN: The NBN is nothing special, it's a network, just a
fast(er) one.
  
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  The RSPs currently don't offer that *because of* the NBN's *current*
implementation. If Simon Hackett's proposal is implemented, then - in
the vast majority of cases - the RSPs GPON modem will be used instead of
the NBN's NTU.

  Believe it or not, but VOIP is not a new technology. For example I use
my "existing telephones" (with my original phone number(s)) which are
directly plugged into my SPs modem. I 'happen' to use more services than
just telephony, but if I wanted, I could have just telephony and nothing
more. Again: The NBN/fibre isn't magic, it's just *a* network.

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  In this case there's no question of (not) argeeing. I'm just pointing
out what *Hackett* *says*. Whether you or/and I agree with his
*arguments* is another matter, but disagreeing about what he *says*/
*presents* is IMO quite silly.

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  Yes, it *is* a lock in. As long as the technology and code isn't
available to all (i.e. 'open'), it's a lock in. There currently is only
one *possible* supplier -> lock in.

Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget

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Not that large a share, actually. And he is actually talking
about the very real problem that the cost to the RSP is
supposed to dramatically increase over time too.

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Yes.


I doubt it with PayTV and the net alone.

While operations like his and now iinet that he sold
out to are certainly interested in providing that along
with the net service, that isn't what Foxtel wants to see.

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Yes, but with a significant cost in what ends
up in the consumer's place as he points out.

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Makes more sense to have that included in
the PayTV side of things, but at no cost for
those who just want the free to air channels.

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Not necessarily with so many doing that
stuff with the mobile phone system now.

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Yes, but as he points out, at a very significant cost for
those phone only connections, for what is as he points out
something that is seen with fewer and fewer customers now.

Does it actually make any real sense to be ripping out all that
POTS copper and replacing it with a much more expensive
way of providing POTS services for those customers ?

The reason the NBN wants to do that is because you then
have no choice but to use the NBN because the copper is
gone and they then can claim that most use the NBN service.

But in reality most would just use a mobile phone if the copper
is ripped out, most of them wouldn't bother with the NBN unless
they are too stupid to work out how to use a mobile phone and
just want someone to do everything for free and carry on regardless
and in effect by grossly subsidised by everyone else for that approach.

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But there are in fact fuck all of those left anymore for various reasons.

Does it really make any sense to be forcing everyone who
wants to operate nationally to be spending a hell of a lot more
just so almost no one can do a local service more cheaply ?

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And dramatically so too.

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And its clear its only a small part of the total cost
of the NBN even if he doesn't spell that out himself.

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He did claim it wouldn't cost much more at and is
likely right about that with the RSP provided NTU.

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I don't when most of us already have a decent broadband service.

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And it can only be a small fraction.

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It doesn't.  


Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget

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We don't.
Most of us do much more than usenet and wikepedia, etc surfing.
We download and upload a fair bit.
Bandwidth demand due to audio-video material is growing rapidly.


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Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget
On 28/07/2013 1:24 PM, Damian wrote:
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  How about you blokes trim some , damo either trim which is an  
effective weapon against the qwanker bot or get plonked for being a pita

Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget

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No man. We are having fun here. Very intelligent debate indeed.
There will be solutions for the nation in the end of this by Rod.     :-)  



Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget
On 28/07/2013 8:08 PM, Damian wrote:
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buhbye


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Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget

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Sure.




Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget


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We do.


ADSL2+ and cable are fine for that.

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Works fine over ADSL2+ and cable.

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Re: Building a Fibre NBN on a Copper budget

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Wonder why it's not readiily available in outback towns!
You may need to get out more and see if you can walk.
Miracles do happpen, you know that.

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