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Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.


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How old are you? You sound like my kids did when they were 9 "She
started it" "He was looking at me".

Trevor has posted useful stuff here, he is welcome (as long as he keeps
his gun opinions where they belong. You and your mate john haven't so
you're not (unless you have something relevant to electronic)

Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.

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45 last birthday, Yep, he started it, and I'll be around until it's
finished.

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Bingo! I don't care what Trevor has to say about electronics, "as long
as he keeps his gun opinions where they belong", unfortunately he
hasn't, he's used aus.electronics to launch another tirade about guns
and gun owners. Other posters seem to think that's OK, I don't. Other
posters seem to think I and others shouldn't have right of reply on
the same forum, I do.

Trevor launched his rant, my replies have demonstrated
a) Trevor has a history of telling porkies on firearms related
matters, when he gets spanked for doing so on gun related groups, he
scurries away to other groups, hoping that no-one there will know
enough about the subject to challenge him; and;
b) anti-gun zealots like Trevor often have no idea what they're
talking about on the subject of firearms, and simply rely on community
fear and ignorance.

Like Tommy, while Trevor continues to use off topic groups to
diseminate misleading information about guns and gun owners among the
wider community, I wont be far away.

Like it or lump it, either way, I'm past caring

Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.
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We're not in someone's house, the comments have been "broadcasted" if
you like, on a public forum.

I understand that some of you believe Trevor has the right to post
whatever lies he likes aboiut guns and gun owners on aus.electronics,
like his claims about gun dealers using gunshows to avoid complying
with GCA 68 and selling guns to criminals, and any contrary opinion
has no right to be heard here, I don't agree with you.

This forum has been used to diseminate misleading assertions about
guns and gun owners.

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Because Trevors spreading his lies HERE!-

Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.
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But it's OK for Trevor to spread his assertions on the subject here?

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The same right's Trevor's got to spread his misinformation about US
gun dealers, DGU's and the "psychopaths in the talk.politics.guns
group"

Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.
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Alright, I'll do a deal with you. Wanker Wilson used aus.electronics
as a forum to launch an attack on guns and gun owners, as he had
previously done on both rec.audio.opinion and aus.hi-fi.  The material
posted in response to this demonstrates that Wilson often tells
porkies about firearms related matters and the anti-gun lobby in
general often it wrong. If you're prepared to tell Wilson to keep his
his anti-gun rethoric off aus.electronics, I'm prepared to walk away.

If Wilson continues to use aus.electronics as a vehicle to launch his
anti-gun tirades, all bets are off.

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So, it's OK for an anti-gun zealot like Wilson to makes his remarks
about guns and gun owners on aus.electronics, but the alternaie view
is not welcome. I don't think I've cost The Shooter's Party any votes
at all, you're minds were made up well before Wilson posted his
"normal people" rant. Responding to anti-gun zealots is never futile,
and as for posting in a forum where the anti view is welcomed but the
pro view is not, again, highlighting prejudice is always worthwhile.


Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.

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Count me on that one too, Tom.
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I agree with that too!

Dammit Tom, so being so bloody reasonable!

Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.




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Yep, but he isn't, he's spreading his assertions on aus.electronics.
We're arguing with Trevor on aus.electronic BECAUSE he is posting his
anti-gun garbage on aus.electronics.


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Have you said the same thing to Trevor about his comments regarding
American gun dealers, DGU's and "psychopaths in the
talk.politics.guns
group ", if not, why not?




Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.


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Interesting question Tom, I guess they aren't having a dig at Trevor
because they agree with him? As you said, active combatants.

Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.



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Almost sounds like a threat, I'm sure if we can put up with adds for
Chinese sneakers, we can put up with the likes of you.

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Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.


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Oh please. He's just making an analogy.

--
    W
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Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.


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Assuming that it's true, how is that the fault of every other
aus.electronics poster? What did we do to deserve being bombarded with
massively off-topic xposts?

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    W
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Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.


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It is true, if you don't believe me, go check, Or I can paste it to
aus.electronics if you wish, however, I'm guessing you don't want me
to do that.

Others on aus.electronics are not responsible for what Wilson posts,
however, as Wilson choose to use aus.electronics as a vehicle to
launch his regular anti-gun tirades, then surely others have the right
to reply on the same forum? Without those replies, people's opinions
on this subject are formed solely on the rants of this zealot, rather
than hearing both sides of this debate.

Where other posters on aus.electronics are at fault, is that they're
quite happy to have Wilson post his off topic, anti-gun  rants here,
but object strongly when an alternative opinion is posted. That one
sided view of what consitutes reasonable or on topic posts on
aus.electronics leads those who have observed or been invloved in the
gun debate for some time to see this as unfair. There's no point
arguing with those who are quite happy to see anti-gun posts on
aus.electronics, but object when a pro-gun (for want of a better term)
post appears, they've already formed their view on the gun "debate"
and as I previously stated, are active combatants in what John Crook
described as "the Australian Gun War"


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Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.


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[...]
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Hell no. If someone in one of the gun groups decided to mouth off about
something relating to electronics, would you want us to drown the gun
groups in tirades against that person? At the very least, I doubt that
you'd be interested in the resulting thread.

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You clearly have a low opinions of peoples' ability to make up their own
minds.

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That's a big assumption. Speaking for myself - & probably many others in
aus.electronics - I skipped over the Taser thread because I'm profoundly
uninterested in the pro/anti gun debate. Yes, I have my opinions on the
topic, but they're not on the pro or anti side, & they're totally
off-topic for aus.electronics. In the unlikely event that I develop an
interest in either side of the debate, I'll sub to one of the relevent
newsgroups.

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You're missing the point, which is that, IMHO, most of the posters here
either couldn't care less about the issue, or simply aren't interested
in arguing about it.

In summary; the guy xposting stuff between here & the gun groups is
being a dickhead, & you won't score any points with anyone by being just
  as big a dickhead.

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Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.




Bob Larter wrote:
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Feel free.



Yep, and since I know how to work my filters.....



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How can you make up your mind unless you are also told the truth?

Anyway, Trevor chose the battleground. I suggest you take it up with him.

Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.





<snip>

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<snip>

Ok there are a couple of problems right here.

1. Your assumption that the subscribers of aus.electronics are "quite
happy to have Wilson post his off topic, anti-gun  rants here".

If they were encouraging him, you might have a point, but as far as I
can tell, they haven't. They are ignoring him on this topic just as
one ignores spam about sex services and cheap deals on herbal
medications or sunglasses or other off-topic stuff that appears  in
groups that we read.

It's not surprising that they object to someone posting an
"alternative opinion" because they weren't interested in the original
opinion and now the person posting off-topic has someone with which to
continue posting off-topic. Your inference that this goes to content
is unjustified.

2. If you really believed that Trevor was being encouraged to post his
"off topic, anti-gun  rants here" and that the responses to you were
driven by political sympathy for the gun control position, you might
well wonder why

a) these people would be interested in the other side of the debate.
If they really are hostile, what's the point of posting? Surely they
will already be aware of the pro-gun claims and have rejected them on
one ground or another.

b) Why wouldn't they appear in gun discussion groups and take it up
there?

Your justification seems to be that people in aus.electronics are
guilty of being insufficiently rude to Trevor and accordingly, you
mean to punish them for "giving aid and comfort" to him by posting
your screeds to aus.electronics. In short, it's not about debate. It's
about getting even with Trevor and anyone who tolerates him because
you don't like him or his ideas.

This reflects rather poorly on you.

Fran


Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.


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Fran, I hope you don't mind if I respond.

The encouragement  comes from attacking the counter point, Trevor now
knows that he can post whatever anti-gun rants he likes on
aus.electronics, and others posting there will neither challenge or
question him, however anybody posting an alternative viewpoint will be
hounded by all those "not interested" ones.

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Really? other than content, what difference in the differing posts?
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Looking at the apparent depth of feeling expressed, I think that
decision was made long before any of this started.
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No Fran, it's about debate, Trevor's opinions,  despite being off
topic are welcome there, any differing opinion, is not.

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Perhaps it does, but considering the vilifiation I've received over
the last decade or so, it is a learned response.

Regards

John.
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Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.


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1. What Trevor "now knows" is immaterial. As far as I can tell, there
is no advantage to Trevor, (or anyone) posting material to people who
ignore it.

2. If he "now knows" it, and you don't like this this is surely your
fault. After all, if you had done what the subscribers to
aus.electronics had done -- i.e. ignore his stuff, he wouldn't know
it.

3. It's not clear that Trevor was even aware that his stuff was being
x-posted to aus.electronics as *he didn't add this to the follow ups*

4. As tempting as it can be to see this place as some cyber version of
"mortal kombat" in which you (why you?) are moved to confront your
enemy wherever he appears, you should resist this. I am a person of
strong views, and yet I make no attempt to ensure that everyone who
says things I don't agree with on usenet is answered. That's too big a
task and in any event, it would imply a monstrous and unhealthy ego.
If in your opinion, someone is talking nonsense, you have to assume
that at least some others will notice because you John-Melb are not
uniquely insightful. Others will no doubt have followed the path you
have to what you see as truth and wisdom, even if they don't shout it
from the rooftops, and those who may wish to develop nonsense will be
challeneged when they offer it in places where people are interested
in the topic.

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Sequence and continuity. The people ignoring the post as off-topic
were hoping that they'd see no more of the off-topic stuff. Telling
someone to take it someplace else rarely works, often triggers more
off-tiopic posts and is pointless if you believe the post was not
intentional. Once someone answers the off-topic post, the way is open
to a lot more, so it's not surprising that once that Rubicon has been
crossed, people get irritated in particular with the people seen as
opening the floodgates ( to mix a metaphor).

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Look. There's no doubt that the whole issue is a highly emotive one.
That old saying "when someone mentions culture I reach for my gun"
applies, but I think you are mistaken in attributing the responses
here to animus towards your position on gun rights. As far as I can
tell, regardless of their views on the issue, people here want
discussion confined to electronics and closely related matters. You
are not only breaching that aspiration but, along with with "Thomas"
threatening to punish the group by spamming them for giving what you
mistakenly see tacit endorsement of Trevor's views. Can't you see that
from their POV this sounds like bullying? Like collective punishment?
Are you really surprised that you are getting negative responses?

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There's simply no evidence that ignoring Trevor's posts implies
endorsement. Most of what is posted in aus.politics offends me at some
level but I respond to only a fraction of it. I'm certainly not
welcoming the views or rightwing bigots by not answering them.

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Then with the greatest of respect and genuine regard for your
wellbeing, you must unlearn it. This can lead nowhere good for you. No
amount of payback or "ROFLs" will salve your pain -- so much is clear
from your admission above -- you are, by your own admission, not
acting freely but in knee jerk mode. You are driven by psychic pain --
angst if you prefer.

You need to stop making so much in here about you -- your rights to
respond; to get even; to correct the ledger. It's not about you and
how people think of you or the things you deem important. It's about
issues people want and don't want to discuss and their right not to be
bothered by the intrusion of noise into their chosen part of
cyberspace and certainly their right not to be harassed by someone
who, to them, surely appears to be using aus.electronics to deal with
their own feelings of hurt and marginalisation.

My friendly advice would be to reassess what is important to you in
this place and to put some distance between what you write about and
you, the human being. Usenet is a place for batting about ideas. You
don't have to win all the time and there being few real ways of
determining who won anyway, the question should be moot.

Best

Fran

Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.


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Going to disagree there Fran, Tosspot previously posted his rants on
rec.audio.opinion and aus.hi-fi, but shot through as soon as he was
challenged about it.

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I think the floodgates were well and truely opened with Trevor's
"normal people" and gun dealers selling to criminals remarks.
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Yep, I aware of the concept of collective punishment, kinda like all
the "rednecks, reactionaries and rambos" remarks directed at people
like me because some nutter runs amok with a gun in another state?
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Of course not, the endorsement comes from "ignoring" anti-gun posts
and then flying off the handle at "pro-gun" posts.

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Well I'm pretty familiar with knee-jerk reactions

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No, I'm using aus.electronics to respond to an anti-gun zealots rants,
because, that's where they're being posted.

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I know what is important to me, and the concept that an anti-gun
zealot can post his remarks on aus.electronics without challenge
whilst and alternative view is attacked is something I find fairly
offensive.

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All the best Fran, glad to hear from you again.
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Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.
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in

No John, what Trevor does in other NGs has no bearing on how you
should respond to him here.

It seems that rec.audio.opinion is a place where it's open slather for
trolls, so what you or Trevor do there seems not to matter.

As to aus.hi-fi it seems that putting aside people spoofing him, he
hasn't actually started a thread there on guns recently.

I did come across you claiming that you had to go after Trevor because
he was "seeking to destroy my way of life".


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No. That's a sweeping generalisation. Collective punishment is when
you punish a cohort because of some action you don't like of a
minority -- like Israel and the Gaza Strip (or vice versa, suicide
bombings directed at Israelis as revenge for attacks on Gaza). The
concept of air war is collective punishment when the bombing is of
general areas rather than specific military targets.

You've dodged here John-Melb because the question is about what others
are entitled to make of your threats to attack the group for their
failure to do your bidding in relation to Trevor's material on guns
appearing in aus.electronics.


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One can't infer that because they failed to respond to Trevor but
responded to you that it was the direction of your content that
troubled them. Trevor regularly posts in aus.electronics on topics
that fit the group's purpose. You do not. You are an outsider in
aus.electronics and Trevor is not, so ceteris paribus does not apply.
All else but the content is not equal.

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Apparently


That is where some have *arrived* as an incident to others x-posting.
There's no need for you to contest the issue in aus.electronics, and
had you responded to Trevor in one of the groups it was on-topic for
and trimmed aus.electronics, it would not have continued to appear
there.

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The question is -- why?

I hear of rants against action on climate change being posted all over
the internet. But you know what? I'm not offended. I disagree, and
sometimes (very occasionally) I respond but I'm not offended. That's
the way the world is. People get to rant and vent but in the end,
whether more rant against my views or in my favour is moot. I don't
see it as my job to confront every rant in the universe I don't like.
At worst I note "oh ... another person who is ranting about [...]"

Why wouldn't you focus on defending your way of life in fora where
people accept your terms, or at least think them germane?

Fran

Re: Anti-gun lobby displaying it's ignorance again.
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I beg to differ, you expect us to behave like gentlemen while this
idiot launches his anti-gun venom from any direction he can? You're
dreaming.
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Kinda like Australia for gun owners in 1996 and 2002?

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Lately he's been posting on topics that don't fit the group's purpose,
and others there don't seem to mind.
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But it has continued to appear there, and there is every need to
respond on aus.electronics because that's where the comments appeared.
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Maybe John has some respect for freedom of speech
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Because Trevor is attacking our way of life on aus.electronics, rather
hard to understand isn't it........
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