1kW Grid Interactive Solar PV up and running

:Ross Herbert wrote: :> On Thu, 07 May 2009 21:30:34 +1000, atec 7 7 wrote: SNIP :> : So $US4K is approx $AU5K3. :> that's with approval and landed here.. I don't know how they do it but :> that's the cost on the invoice I have here.

I can't argue with that fact then.

:> :>You still have to pay for installation at :> :> current labour costs on top of all this.

:> : the install doesn't take long apart from the board which is a couple :> :of hours max

Not from what I have seen. It took 2 blokes to fit the mounting frame and place the panels on the roof. The "boy" then took off and left the 2 experienced blokes there to install the inverter and ac/dc isolator box, run the cabling and install the required isolator in the meter box, and place the labels as required by the local authority and then testing the system. It took about 3-1/2 hours all up. If you are doing a one man installation I think you would be lucky to do it (properly) inside 6 hours.

BTW, unless you are a registered solar installer you won't qualify for the rebate.

:> :> It should also be remembered that all the costs have to be submitted to the :> :> Australian goverment when applying for the $8K rebate, :> : why ? :> : surely it's an invoice which may or may not be relevant to the actual :> :cost ?

No. the application for the rebate must be made BEFORE you place an order for the equipment other wise you don't qualify. That's why you should have read the guidelines and studied the application form because on that form it asks for a breakdown of equipment plus costs.

:> :which has to be done :> :> before you even place anorder for the equipment. :> : nah

Read the guidelines for making an application for the rebate..

:> : Do you think they would approve :> :> the rebate if you were not going to actually have an out of pocket expense? :> : :> :why not ?

Because it is the prerogative of the federal government to refuse the rebate if they think you are not making any contribution at all to the cost of the system.

:> :> Have you actually downloaded and read the application form? : no reason to

Then you haven't applied for the rebate have you?

:>

:> :> I would say that you appear convinced of the validity of the Nuenergy : nah : :(and other :> similar) offer so I can only recommend that you give it a try and see what :> happens. : not any time soon as we already have a very large system well below :retail : Then report back after it has been operating for a year and let us know :> how it is performing.

: show the way sunshine

I suppose that remark could be a pun... I have no problem reporting back after a period of operation of my system.

:> :> Personally, I would want a reputable company behind the supply of recognised :> brand name equipment and a reputable qualified installer so that if there is any :> comeback later, I can actually talk to a real person who will have to take up my :> complaint.

: that's why I imported my own much cheaper

Granted. But, you haven't read the guidelines for making application for the rebate. If you had you would have seen that you must be approved for the rebate before placing an order for any equipment and onthe application you must nominate both the supplier of the equipment and the registered installer along with his company name and registraton number. Unless you did this or you are a qualified/registered solar installer yourself (assuming you are going to install it yourself), you won't get the rebate anyway. Looks like you will end up paying roughly as much as I did for an inferior system..

and

required

do

system.

up

thats so wrong it's painful , I used a licensed sparky doing the majority of work myself having the required trade certs , (assuming you are going to install

wrong Looks like you will end up paying

utterly wrong ..

"hands hanky to wipe egg "

On Fri, 08 May 2009 17:44:47 +1000, Ross Vumbaca put finger to keyboard and composed:

I had the same problem with broken threads when I was with Optusnet.

If your newsreader supports it, add a second news server to your list.

Here is a free one -- nntp.aioe.org

Configure your newsreader to receive messages from both servers. In this way any message not available from Optusnet will be delivered by Aioe.

- Franc Zabkar

--
Please remove one \'i\' from my address when replying by email.

On Fri, 08 May 2009 17:58:14 +1000, Ross Vumbaca put finger to keyboard and composed:

Yes, my cost would be < $1000.

I believe this recent thread covers some of the hardware:

This is the inverter:

The panels are 170W Enertech monocrystalline SE-170M:

I don't have any real understanding of this market. I only recently started looking into it.

- Franc Zabkar

--
Please remove one \'i\' from my address when replying by email.

:Ross Herbert wrote: :> On Fri, 08 May 2009 17:57:58 +1000, atec 7 7 wrote: SNIP :> Granted. But, you haven't read the guidelines for making application for the :> rebate. If you had you would have seen that you must be approved for the rebate :> before placing an order for any equipment and onthe application you must :> nominate both the supplier of the equipment and the registered installer along :> with his company name and registraton number. Unless you did this or you are a :> qualified/registered solar installer yourself

: thats so wrong it's painful , I used a licensed sparky doing the :majority of work myself having the required trade certs ,

:(assuming you are going to install :> it yourself), you won't get the rebate anyway.

: wrong

:Looks like you will end up paying :> roughly as much as I did for an inferior system..

: utterly wrong .. :

***************** You seem to answer in very short sentences which don't convey much information, so pardon me if I have to make some assumptions based on your answers.

Let's highlight a few points you may have overlooked. You said you hadn't read the rebate application form or guideline document. You say you already have the equipment which you imported from China. Correct? So have you ensured that it meets the relevant Australian standards as listed here?

"To receive the rebate all the equipment in the system must be new and meet the relevant Australian Standards. All systems, components and equipment must comply with, and be designed and installed in accordance with all relevant Australian Standards or, where such does not exist, with the relevant international standard. Australian Standards include, but are not limited to: ? AS/NZS 3000 ? Electrical installations ? AS 4509 ? Stand-alone power systems ? AS 4086 ? Secondary batteries for use with stand- alone power systems ? AS 4777 ? Grid connection of energy systems via inverters ? AS/NZS 5033 ? Installation of photovoltaic (PV) arrays (currently under review) ? AS/NZS 1170 ? Structural design actions; and ? any other standard called upon by the above or other relevant standards. Photovoltaic modules must be tested and certified to IEC61215 or IEC61646 by a laboratory registered under the International Electrotechnical Commission?s (IEC) CB scheme to test these standards."

**************** You say above you "used a licensed sparky...". This implies to me that you have already installed the system. Correct?

Does your sparky/installer appear on the list of accredited installers? (Qld installers appear on p.31 - 40)

The guideline states;

"Competent designer and installer

To be eligible for a rebate the applicant must be able to demonstrate that the person who carries out the photovoltaic installation is accredited (full or provisional) for design and installation of photovoltaic systems by the Australian Business Council for Sustainable Energy. Details of accredited designers and installers are available at

A licensed electrical contractor must carry out the electrical work associated with the wiring in the building and in the power system, in compliance with regulations in the state or territory in which the installation is undertaken."

Care to tell us if he is on the list?

*********** You say you haven't read the rebate application. So, has it been completed and submitted?

"When should the application be lodged?

The Residential application for pre-approval must be submitted to and approved by the Program Manager before the system installation commences. A rebate will NOT be paid for equipment installed without pre-approval being granted."

On page 3 of the guideline it states categorically; "A rebate will NOT be paid for equipment installed without pre-approval being granted."

and on page 5;

"Notification of pre-approval Applicants will be notified in writing if the pre-approval has been granted or not within six weeks from receipt of the complete application.

The notification of pre-approval will set out any additional compliance requirements. The pre-approval will expire nine months after the date it is granted.

On receipt of pre-approval, successful applicants should immediately notify their installer so that materials can be ordered and installation commenced."

************ Finally, have you actually received an approval of your application for the rebate?

I will tell you nothing over to the >troll file

I see, seems to be in a similar vein to NuEnergy and all the rest cost/quality wise..

Neither do I, I'm only looking at it as a beginner myself, but the amount of cheap deals that have recently appeared, followed by the people who claim it to be a rort, and those who don't, has made it rather confusing and uncertain..

Regards,

Ross..

Thanks for the tip. Doesn't look like my newsreader (Thunderbird) supports reading from a second server though (unless I set it up as an additional account) :-\\.

Regards,

Ross..

for

has

$8K

as

customer

while

My understanding is that NuEnergy will not install anything at all unless you have been pre-approved for the rebate. There are a number of installers out there already, that hold the debt for you, and only ask for the out-of-pocket costs ($500-$5000), since they expect to get the rebate (it's pre-approved) and they probably have credit arrangements with their suppliers that will cover the 6 weeks or so delay in getting the rebate.

If a supplier of PV systems were to ask the customer to front up with $8K, (later refunded by the government) it would present quite a barrier to many customers. I know that some installers do this, which is a major turn off for me. If you read the T&C of NuEnergy they state clearly that they operate on the proviso that a minimum number of orders will be made, and that they won't ship/supply until a threshold is reached (assumedly to enact their bulk buying arrangement). They probably have credit arrangements with suppliers, or they will hold the debt themselves, since they are guaranteed to receive the money. I saw on their website that they are currently "capital raising".

In holding the debt for the customer, I wouldn't call it magnanimous, I'd call it business. They know that $8K is a big barrier, they want to sell a lot of systems, they therefore have no choice but to cover the initial $8K cost, lest they fail in their endeavour.

From the T&C, I'm 100% sure that the customer will pay nothing beyond the $2500 deposit (which is later mostly refunded). Also the price of RECS is changing very soon, perhaps they plan to benefit from this, since the rollout of systems will take at least a couple months from now to even begin (assuming that the new higher price of RECS is available even to those who receive the old rebate, and who haven't 'sold' their RECS yet).

Regards,

Ross..

made

Yes. For some reason, he's starting his posts with the string "-- ", which is used to indicate the start of one's signature. So when someone replies to his post, their newsreader removes everything after the "-- ", thinking it's his sig.

--
    W
  . | ,. w ,   "Some people are alive only because
   \\|/  \\|/     it is illegal to kill them."    Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Yes. In Thunderbird, you have to set up a new account to use another news server. It doesn't support merging posts from multiple servers.

--
    W
  . | ,. w ,   "Some people are alive only because
   \\|/  \\|/     it is illegal to kill them."    Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

:Ross Herbert wrote: :> On Fri, 08 May 2009 23:30:45 +1000, atec 7 7 wrote: :> :> :Ross Herbert wrote: :> :> On Fri, 08 May 2009 17:57:58 +1000, atec 7 7 wrote: :> SNIP :> :> Granted. But, you haven't read the guidelines for making application for the :> :> rebate. If you had you would have seen that you must be approved for the :> rebate :> :> before placing an order for any equipment and onthe application you must :> :> nominate both the supplier of the equipment and the registered installer :> along :> :> with his company name and registraton number. Unless you did this or you are :> a :> :> qualified/registered solar installer yourself :> :> : thats so wrong it's painful , I used a licensed sparky doing the :> :majority of work myself having the required trade certs , :> :> :(assuming you are going to install :> :> it yourself), you won't get the rebate anyway. :> :> : wrong :> :> :Looks like you will end up paying :> :> roughly as much as I did for an inferior system.. :> :> :> : utterly wrong .. :> : :> ***************** :> You seem to answer in very short sentences which don't convey much information, :> so pardon me if I have to make some assumptions based on your answers. :> :I will tell you nothing : over to the >troll file

So you can't provide valid answers to my questions eh?

Going by what have I seen in the multitude of forums you subscribe to, and participate in, it is you who is the troll...

On Sun, 10 May 2009 11:16:42 +1000, Ross Vumbaca wrote:

:Hi Ross, : :Ross Herbert wrote: : :> "Essentially, the householder simply agrees that the rebate will be paid to NU :> Energy." :> :> Now if Nuenergy gets the business they hope for it would not be unreasonable for :> them to be installing say ten 1kW systems per week. It takes about 6 weeks :> before the federal government comes good with the $8K rebate. If a purchaser has :> a system installed for no money out of his pocket, as inferred by the Nuenergy :> free offer statement, this means that the supplier (Nuenergy) must carry the $8K :> debt on each system installed for up to 6 weeks. Now 10 x 6 = 60 systems, 60 x :> $8K = $480,000. Therefore, Nuenergy would have to carry nearly half-a-million :> dollars worth of overhead debt before starting to receive any $8K rebates back :> from the government for the first week of installations. I doubt very much that :> Nuenergy would be prepared to be so magnanimous. I would think that Nuenergy, as :> do most other suppliers, would insist on the customer paying the actual out of :> pocket expenses (say $8K) at completion of the installation so that the customer :> is the one to carry the debt until the government pays the rebate back to him. :> :> Of course I may be wrong (again), but a company carrying this sort of debt while :> waiting for the government to pay the rebates sounds a bit far fetched to me. : :My understanding is that NuEnergy will not install anything at all :unless you have been pre-approved for the rebate. There are a number of :installers out there already, that hold the debt for you, and only ask :for the out-of-pocket costs ($500-$5000), since they expect to get the :rebate (it's pre-approved) and they probably have credit arrangements :with their suppliers that will cover the 6 weeks or so delay in getting :the rebate.

The rebate may be pre-approved but it isn't paid until the installation is complete and the installer's report submitted back to the government. It then takes about 6 weeks to come through to whoever is nominated to receive it. If a small installer is only going to ask for the out of pocket expenses and is prepared to carry the outstanding $8K for 6 weeks in these financially trying times then I would be surprised. Enviro-Friendly say they can't afford to carry the debt and they are installing 5 systems per week currently.

: :If a supplier of PV systems were to ask the customer to front up with :$8K, (later refunded by the government) it would present quite a barrier :to many customers. I know that some installers do this, which is a major :turn off for me. If you read the T&C of NuEnergy they state clearly that :they operate on the proviso that a minimum number of orders will be :made, and that they won't ship/supply until a threshold is reached :(assumedly to enact their bulk buying arrangement). They probably have :credit arrangements with suppliers, or they will hold the debt :themselves, since they are guaranteed to receive the money. I saw on :their website that they are currently "capital raising".

In order to raise capital they have to provide substantial collateral and they have to pay whatever interest the lender is asking. What business has ever allowed the customer to use their money for 6 weeks (or longer) without charging interest? Even credit cards only give you 4 weeks, and then it's 20 odd percent till it's paid off.

: :In holding the debt for the customer, I wouldn't call it magnanimous, :I'd call it business. They know that $8K is a big barrier, they want to :sell a lot of systems, they therefore have no choice but to cover the :initial $8K cost, lest they fail in their endeavour.

This may seem like good business to the customer but in the current financial crisis a small business would be hard pressed to carry several hundred thousand $ (or more) in debt for 6 weeks, even at the relatively low interest rates of today. I would be surprised if any business these days would allow a customer to, in effect, borrow $8K interest-free, from them for 6 weeks. The banks certainly aren't going to advance any capital to a business to bulk buy PV systems from China without very good collateral and they certainly won't do it interest-free either. Somebody must pay, and if the customer isn't paying for it then Nuenergy, who must be operating on a very small margin in the hope of receiving a large volume of orders, has to carry debt as well as the interest.In fact, the more orders they receive, the larger the outstanding debt will be.

: : From the T&C, I'm 100% sure that the customer will pay nothing beyond :the $2500 deposit (which is later mostly refunded). Also the price of :RECS is changing very soon, perhaps they plan to benefit from this, :since the rollout of systems will take at least a couple months from now :to even begin (assuming that the new higher price of RECS is available :even to those who receive the old rebate, and who haven't 'sold' their :RECS yet). : :Regards, : :Ross..

The RECS payout will also only be paid after the 6 weeks following submission of the installation report.

All I can say is, if you are convinced the offer is good then give it a go and let us know the result. However, remember what they say, "if it looks too good to be true, it probably is." To me, It looks too good to be true - but then I am rather skeptical.

Looks like the suppliers are now actively targeting the vulnerable. My mum and all the residents in her retirement village have just received an offer from "Sancturary Energy" to install a 1kW system on individual dwellings for $9000 which would supposedly be "at no cost to them" ($8000 grant + $1000 REC's). It looks like they specialise in this:

The installer is SolarSave:

You have to sign up to Sanctuary as your energy supplier of course. And the company supposedly has finance to cover the cost of the installation between when it's installed and when the grant comes through. No studies are done on individual dwellings to even see if it's even feasible for them, they are just telling everyone they can save money if they sign up.

Dave.

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:Looks like the suppliers are now actively targeting the vulnerable. :My mum and all the residents in her retirement village have just received an :offer from "Sancturary Energy" to install a 1kW system on individual :dwellings for $9000 which would supposedly be "at no cost to them" ($8000 :grant + $1000 REC's). It looks like they specialise in this: :

:The installer is SolarSave: : : : : :You have to sign up to Sanctuary as your energy supplier of course. And the :company supposedly has finance to cover the cost of the installation between :when it's installed and when the grant comes through. :No studies are done on individual dwellings to even see if it's even :feasible for them, they are just telling everyone they can save money if :they sign up. : :Dave.

There could be all sorts of complications arising out of such promotions to people living in retirement villages. If the residents don't own their own residence in that village (and they rarely do) they must seek permission from the owner before installing anything on that premises.

The PV installation is the property of the applicant, who is not necessarily the owner of the premises. What happens to the PV ownership when they die? I fear the kids would have great difficulty if they wanted to remove it and install it somewhere else. Such offers are predatory IMO and the promoters know that most of the elderly in these situations wouldn't be around long enough to realise the payback for a PV installation so they would flog them the cheapest components they could get away with. They are simply looking to capture as much of the government supplied free money as they can before it dries up.

I can't see this sort of promotion working out at all and any retiree in such circumstances who may be considering the offer should do some thorough checking externally, not just take the promoter's word as gospel.

Yes indeed. Although that's not the case in this particular situation.

My sentiments exactly.

Yes, and there is very little real information supplied with the info pack they got. The company is sending a rep around to answer any questions at a community meeting, but most people wouldn't know what the important questions are. I advised my mum to avoid it completely, and she liked the sound of that.

Dave.

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From reading the eligibility requirements for the rebate, the applicant can only install the Solar System at the address of the owner of the premises as shown in the electoral roll. This would prevent a non owner from installing a system even if the owner agreed to it. Its even more vague if a person is the owner, but doesnt own the roof in the case of a strata titled multi storey apartment.

Or if the person lives in a caravan park and owns the van. People who rent seem to be totally excluded.

In this case the village is "company title" which means a "corporation" technically owns the land and dwellings, of which all the resisdents are equal shareholders of the corporation. Each resident gets one share and effectively owns one dwelling. Who knows how that would work in this case, I'm sure lawyers would salivate at the thought of it.

Dave.

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Theres a number of other strange conditions which people may not be aware of. One is that there is a maximum time limit for the entire system to be installed and commisioned, and this time limit is shown on the letter the applicant receives from the program manager of the rebate program. If the system isnt installed and commisioned within the time frame the rebate lapses. What happens if thru no fault of the applicant or the installer the system isnt commisioned in this time frame, for example if the local power company is very slow in approving and making the final connection which required the new meter to be installed. Where I live , this time is currently 3 months. Another strange condition is that the Program Manager of the rebate program can demand in the first 5 years to see reports of the operation of the system. This would imply that the owner will have to keep records of how well the system works. Whats the case if a home owner who has a mortgage instalsl a solar system and later thru mortgage default loses the house. Who owns the solar system?