$1b electric car infrastructure deal

The Prius is indeed merely an interim 'feel good' solution for a few bleeding hearts.

When the REAL series hybrids like the Opel Flextreme (using a diesel engine for efficiency when battery recharge is needed) come on stream the whole situation will change radically and every motor manufacturer other than GM will be left looking very stupid.

Even considered they might have learnt something from the EV1 ?

Graham

The '3 litre' Lupo could do 100km on 3 litres of fuel.

And that was several years ago and not even a hybrid !

"The Lupo 3L was a special-edition made with the intent of being the world's first car in series production consuming as little as 3 litres of fuel per 100 kilometres (78 miles per US gallon or 94 miles per Imperial gallon). To achieve this the 3L was significantly changed from the standard Lupo to include:

1.2 litre 3-cylinder diesel engine with turbocharger and direct injection (61 hp, 140 Nm) Use of light-weight aluminum and magnesium alloys for doors, bonnet, rear-hatch, seat frames, engine block, wheels, suspension system etc. to achieve a weight of only 830 kg (1830 lb) Tiptronic gearbox Engine start/stop automatic to avoid long idling periods Low rolling resistance tires battery location moved to boot for better weight distribution

During the period of series production of the Lupo 3L, Volkswagen also presented the 1L Concept, a prototype made with the objective of proving the capability of producing a roadworthy vehicle consuming only 1 litre of fuel per 100 kilometres (235 miles per US gallon)."

Graham

This is the fundamental difference between baseload and peaking generation. Peaking is expensive typically. Baseload is very cheap typically.

How does it change their efficiency ?

**I'm pretty certain I could find a motorcycle with superior fuel economy too. Additionally, that is not in stop-start motoring. THAT is what the Prius is designed to do best. You seem to forget that the Prius offers comfort for five people and reasonable luggage capacity. It is important to compare apples with apples.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

**Indeed. Things are changing in that area too.

**Ah, the old apples with oranges comparison. I understand it well. **It is also why many people buy Prius cars.

**What is the acceleration from 0-100kph? The Prius is approximately 11 seconds. My own dinosaur manages it in around 8 seconds. **Nope. The Prius works extremely well right here in Sydney.

But mostly

**They have, actually. Just not far enough. **I disagree. Most people I see on the roads do not require huge load carrying capacity, nor long distance ability. Some do, but most do not. **Not around Sydney, they're not. The price of Diesel is far too high and they don't provide sufficient economy for city driving. **What's the warranty? 8 years? I did some calculations and figured that I could replace the batteries in a Prius for around AUS$1,000.00. Given that I could manage it, I'm certain others could do likewise, at lower prices. Toyota's battery price is just silly, of course. **I've seen interviews with the people who leased that car. They seemed to feel that the time was right. They were not allowed to keep their cars.

I'm not saying that won't ever change however. Maybe then

**Oh, we're just starting this particular journey into the technology. But start we must. Personal transport using fossil fuel is doomed. **Like I said: we'll see. 'Peak oil' has probably been reached. $10.00/Litre for Diesel/petrol is not an unreasonable expectation within the next decade. At those levels, electric cars will suddenly appear to be a real good idea, despite the limitations (and they are certainly considerable). **A desire to do their bit for the environment. At least, three of my neighbours, who own Prius cars cite that as their rationale. I applaud them for putting their money where their mouths are. The Prius is a very expensive way to make a statement. They are certainly not under the delusion that the Prius will pay itself back in fuel savings.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Yep, sure is. I suggest you try it. Make sure you include all motoring related taxes, levies, duties, excises, fines, etc, both state and federal. I have no real problem with motorists being taxed for other purposes than roads, (although I do object to the ad-hoc nature of many of the charges) but denying it happens is just plain ignorance. I still remember part of the targeted bi-centennial fuel levy being used here for a tram extension. So even when it's not supposed to go to consolidated revenue, it still doesn't benefit drivers. (OT. Trams must be the worst form of public transport invented IMO, and the biggest cause of traffic congestion in the cities of those that have them, along with indiscriminate on street parking)

Then there are the cross subsidies actually spent on roads, but mainly for the benefit of freight transport. Car drivers help fund the free interstate highway network, whilst being forced to pay tolls on many local roads. So they could at least admit non-motorist consumers benefit from all those motoring taxes, levies, duties, excises, fines, etc. etc,or get the interstate freight off the road and onto the rail network where it should be IMO! Or how about tolls on the Hume, and all the current freeways to bring some semblance of fairness to the system.

My first change though would be to cut out fixed registration and CTP charges, and increase fuel taxes, thereby making smaller or hybrid vehicles and motorcycles a viable option as a second or even third vehicle, and making those who use their vehicles more, actually pay more.

MrT.

**I sort of agree with this. It would be a true user pays system. However, there are a couple of sticking points:

In more than 35 years of driving, I've never caused the injury of another, pedestrian driver, passenger, nor myself, nor a passenger in my car/s. Yet, my CTP insurance STILL rises each and every year. There needs to be a fairer way for those drivers who don't hurt other road users. Then we have these morons who collect their children from school in Landcruisers (and the like). These monsters are over-represented in the death and injury stats of other road users. Perhaps a tax based on the 'agressivity' and road damage of the vehicle is required.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Why? My car is directly comparable to a Prius in size, passenger/luggage carrying ability, comfort, overall running cost, emmissions etc. BUT performance is better, costs less to buy, no batteries to replace. It's actually YOUR car that is a totally different category it seems.

petrol

See, mine is less than that! (9.3 seconds according to the manufacturer with a slightly more expensive model rated at 8.2 seconds with a rated fuel consumption of 6.3 litres combined) You really need to see what is out there before singing the praises of overpriced obsolete technology like the Prius.

So can *many* cars, at the expense of fuel consumption of course.

But not as well as some other options.

The Prius has hardly improved at all in that time unfortunately.

for

Ah, the old "perfect for others but not for me" argument.

Yep, if all you do is travel in the city, save your money and use public transport. OR buy a motor scooter.

No argument there. Renewable energy sources and electric only cars will be necessary, NOT cars like the Prius!

$10.00/Litre

decade.

idea,

Certainly not crap like the Prius though.

No argument there.

Walk or ride a push bike then.

them

Not to mention delusional when there are far better options. My beef is that the single biggest problem with the world is 6+ Billion people, and yet those pretending to save the planet are often the same ones screaming for baby bonuses, child care support, and a hundred other handouts to encourage people to make the problem worse!

That's just as well. :-)

MrT.

Me either, that's what you get with a no fault system. The bad drivers are subsided by the others.

fairer

True, but at least a system that charges for the time you are actually on the road rather than in the garage, would be an improvement IMO. Certainly no worse on that score.

of

At least including it in fuel taxes does help, since the bigger the vehicle the more fuel it will use.

MrT.

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River, ocean, tidal barrage applications. Our systems can also produce nearly 1 million gallons of purified water with a single system.

If I had known the answers I would have provided them. My guess would be that it has to provide a "reasonable" days driving with an overnight fill. Almost all of the contributors to this group are capable of making similar assumptions.

Should be fun. They do have big tanker ships moving LNG around btw.

Dispensing it at the pump might be interesting. -170C would embrittle the hose and cause it to crack. Whoops !

Graham

Assumptions are worthless. Read "guess". Hardly a basis for a scientific discussion. And don't get your Watts confused with your Joules or kWh.

Graham

Don't get "Where are the electric cars ?" confused with a scientific discussion.

[OT] I could resist clicking on "view profile" when I looked up your post on Google. How did you manage to get yourself banned? I have found your posts a bit pompous but I can't imagine why they would offend the folks at Google.

Graham

Eeyore wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com:

Come on, have you even done a rough calculations of what kind of load we are talking about? I like to see you do some back of the envelop calculations. Firstly, how much energy are we talking about?

Without any calculations, how do you know what sort of load are we talking about? As you say if you have to keep the baseload stations running why not put them to good use? Apart from heating people's hot water over- night and street lighting, what else would you be using them for?

That's right they are talking about building the infrastructure to support it. What's the difference between that any heaps of suburban petrol stations across the cities? Batteries and solar cell technologies are getting better. Finally when you say taking a long time to recharge, what sort of time are you talking about? How about some calculations to show that it is not feasible?

One more thing, if nothing else, we will have much cleaner air, at least in the bigger cities. That has to be a good thing for people with breathing difficulties.

Yes , it doesnt work in liqufied form. Its only used that way for export. Large ships with special insulated cryo tanks carry the stuff around the world. The local busses here run on CNG but its simply compressed as a gas into hi pressure cylinders which are located on the roof of the bus. There are some cars running around powered by CNG and there is one CNG filling station near where I live. Just looks like a normal petrol station with slightly differant looking pumps. CNG is a bit of a dilemma for Govts in how do they tax it. Gasoline and LPG are taxed, but CNG isnt, or not yet anyway. If you tax it , then the tax will have to apply to all CNG uses, as you wont be able to stop people filling their cars at home of the gas pipe.

Lol, doesn't even cover what is spent each year on maintenance.

That is the point, motorists ARE NOT TAXED for other purposes, but are grossly subsidised out of general revenue by EVERYONE, including non-motorists.

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Geeze, I'll be sure to be more exact in my wording next time, just you you Graham.

Surprised that NZ uses such a high proportion of renewable *electrial* energy? Amazing isn't it?

Dave.

And they are simply too heavy. The lightest batteries at the moment are Lithium Ions which weigh around 10 KG per KWH. So for a range or around 150 miles you need 30 KWH , so thats 300 KG of battery in your car, or the equivalent of around 4 passengers all the time. But its really all academic anyway. History shows that people wont adopt new technology unless it costs around the same or less than whats currently available for the same level of performance. So Evs will have to compete price wise with conventional cars for similar performance, and so far thats just a dream. Heres a bit of interesting info. When Henry Ford invented his model T , it sold for around $300 which was approx 4 months pay at that time. That would make a Model T cost around $4000 in todays money, not far from what Indias Tata motors are aiming for . ($3800) Electric cars will have to come down to around $20K or less before there will be much interest, and currently you cant even buy the battery for that price.

Heres an interesting question to ponder. What gives the greatest improvement in CO2 reduction per dollar spent. Solar Panels or Electric cars. Why arnt Electric cars subsidised like Solar Panels are.