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Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal


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**I'm sure it does. If I were to suggest a car for predominately highway
operation, it would not be a Prius.

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**Indeed.

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**It probably does. That merely reflects Toyota's unfortunate choice of IC
engine in their Prius. The concept is good, but the execution leaves much to
be desired. IMO, a MUCH larger battery, plug-in recharging and a smaller
Diesel engine would have been better choices.

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**Indeed. That VW engine is an impressive device.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal



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The Prius is indeed merely an interim 'feel good' solution for a few bleeding
hearts.

When the REAL series hybrids like the Opel Flextreme (using a diesel engine for
efficiency when battery recharge is needed) come on stream the whole situation
will change radically and every motor manufacturer other than GM will be left
looking very stupid.

Even considered they might have learnt something from the EV1 ?

Graham




Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal



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The '3 litre' Lupo could do 100km on 3 litres of fuel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Lupo

And that was several years ago and not even a hybrid !

"The Lupo 3L was a special-edition made with the intent of being the world's
first car in series production consuming as little as 3 litres of fuel per 100
kilometres (78 miles per US gallon or 94 miles per Imperial gallon). To achieve
this the 3L was significantly changed from the standard Lupo to include:
1.2 litre 3-cylinder diesel engine with turbocharger and direct injection (61
hp, 140 Nm)
Use of light-weight aluminum and magnesium alloys for doors, bonnet, rear-hatch,
seat frames, engine block, wheels, suspension system etc. to achieve a weight of
only 830 kg (1830 lb)
Tiptronic gearbox
Engine start/stop automatic to avoid long idling periods
Low rolling resistance tires
battery location moved to boot for better weight distribution

During the period of series production of the Lupo 3L, Volkswagen also presented
the 1L Concept, a prototype made with the objective of proving the capability of
producing a roadworthy vehicle consuming only 1 litre of fuel per 100 kilometres
(235 miles per US gallon)."

Graham


Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal



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**I'm pretty certain I could find a motorcycle with superior fuel economy
too. Additionally, that is not in stop-start motoring. THAT is what the
Prius is designed to do best. You seem to forget that the Prius offers
comfort for five people and reasonable luggage capacity. It is important to
compare apples with apples.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal



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The technology is fairly mature and 'green' energy is EXPENSIVE.

Just another pipe dream.

Graham


Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal
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CSIRO are working on one at the moment:

http://www.csiro.au/science/psyp.html


Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal

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from?
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Sure, lots of people have been working on them for decades. When they
actually come up with something commercially viable, the idea might even
become feasible.

MrT.



Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal

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There is another possibility. Currently if you look at the load curve of
typical cities, the load on the electrical network is alway lowest
through
the night when the offices and factories are shut. Most electricity
utilities provide off peak tarrif for hot water heating. They do this to
smooth our the load. The theory is that the generators can work at best
efficiency. But even with hot water load, there are still variation
across the day. By getting people to recharge their cars during at the
normal low load time then it might actually improve generation
efficency. Getting generators to generate at the best efficiency
might actually be better overall. Less pollution?


Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal



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Not really. It's a fairly stupid idea in fact.


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Wishful thinking.

Graham



Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal

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come
of
to
best
the

Prove me wrong!

Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal



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Pitifully simple.

They only sell electricity late at night for a discount because they HAVE to
keep the baseload stations running regardless.

It's merely a question of getting at least something for what they have no
choice but to do.

Make it popular and the price will go up. It's called 'the market'.

Do you even understand the difference between baseload and peaking
generation ?

NO free lunch again you see plus pure EV ranges are pitiful. AND the
batteries take an AGE to recharge and last at best 5 years.

Graham



Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal

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Come on, have you even done a rough calculations of what kind of load we
are talking about? I like to see you do some back of the envelop
calculations. Firstly, how much energy are we talking about?

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Without any calculations, how do you know what sort of load are we
talking about? As you say if you have to keep the baseload stations
running why
not put them to good use? Apart from heating people's hot water over-
night and street lighting, what else would you be using them for?

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That's right they are talking about building the infrastructure to
support it. What's the difference between that any heaps of suburban
petrol stations across the cities? Batteries and solar cell technologies
are getting better. Finally when you say taking a long time to recharge,
what sort of time are you talking about? How about some calculations to
show that it is not feasible?

One more thing, if nothing else, we will have much cleaner air, at least
in the bigger cities. That has to be a good thing for people with
breathing difficulties.

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Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal



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Irrelevant. Electricity doesn't ACTUALLY get cheaper at night by some
macick.


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They're just ticking over. Demand a serious load and they'll use MORE FUEL.

You have a basic problem with thermodynamics I see and conservation of
energy. I guess SCIENCE wasn't your strong suit ?


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Existing cars with catalysts do fine. Even in 1993 the Saab 9000 was
promoted as an 'air cleaner' in congested cities. The emissions from its
tail pipe were less than in the surrounding air. Guess my car.

Graham


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I think SCIENCE is NOT your strong suit. Did I ever say it will use no
extra fuel? Do you even know anything about modern electricity network?
When do you think it would be most polluting? When we have to run up
older generators to meet peak demand from people charging their cars
during
the day or when people charge them at low demand (when the newer
generators can be run). And what about the loses in the tranmission and
distribution networks?

Unfortunately you are so one dimenational you don't think about these
other issues. I hope our scientists and engineers are not like you.
Otherwise we will just be happy to dig it out and ship it overseas,
sigh.


Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal



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And what makes you think that will be the norm ?

Graham


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Must be something to do with America I guess, the only nation I know that
uses 'dimes".

MrT.



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So you really think burning more brown coal will create less pollution?

MrT.



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I'm not sure that it is just efficency, but more startup and sht down
times. AFAIK coal fired takes 24 hours to start up, gas turbine minutes
and hydro seconds. so if you have the coal burning and the boilers
bubbling you want the generator to be spining producing electricty that
you are getting paid for.

Certainly, rechargng a whole pile of electric cars during off peak would
give he coal station generators better return and thus higher efficency.

It is NOT however worth the home owner charging a whole pile of batteries
atthe cheap rate and then runing their house on an inverter during the
day. Efficency in and efficency out, then cost of asset and deprecation
takes care of all that. <Just thought I'd shoot that turkey before it
got off the ground>




Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal



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This is the fundamental difference between baseload and peaking generation.
Peaking is expensive typically. Baseload is very cheap typically.


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How does it change their efficiency ?


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That would be just nuts.

Graham



Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal

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Wouldn't it be better to use the natural and coal seam gas that will
almost certainly be used to generate the electricity, directly in the
car? A distribution system for the gas and a change to multi-fuel cars
seems preferable to me.

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