$1b electric car infrastructure deal

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Wow, if it actually happens:
http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,24541574-15306,00.html

Dave.

Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal
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couldn't agree  more Dave,
I think the main stumbling block is still battery technology, and not
refueling stations. If the battery was good enough, and the car cheap
enough, there wouldn't be a problem.

People would rent car space and power outlets in their front yards, if
refueling stations was the bottle neck.

City based companies could provide for their workers, or spin a profit
from company owned car parks.

Don...


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Don McKenzie

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Re: $1b electric car infrastructure deal
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I agree.
Although having a big infrastructure in place will help things
immensely, both politically and practically for the first generation
of cars that don't get hundreds of km per charge.

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Our local shopping centre has had an electric car only space for many
years, and a place I used to work at had one too (at the request of
an employee who built her own fully electric car)

Dave.

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an interesting read at:
<http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=electrifying-cars-down-under-2008-10-23

quote "there is a compelling case for automobile manufacturers to jump
in and build clean, safe, affordable electric cars for Australasia and
Southeast Asia.” Who knows? Maybe some Australian city will become the
Detroit of the 21st century?

Perhaps we do need to build the infrastructure first.
Lay your eggs, and the chickens will arrive in great numbers, grasshopper!

Don...


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Don McKenzie

Site Map:            http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap
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I'm curious to know the details of this and how it's going to be
implemented, both in these charging stations and the cars themselves.
They will want to protect their market space somehow if it takes off.

As you said, people will rent space and a power point at their own
place, along with existing service stations, parking stations, shops,
work places etc. None of this needs this new "infrastructure", which
is really just a special plug connection and a payment system to the
existing grid.

People will no doubt try and "steal" electricity from anywhere they
can.

Previous EV's have had a special plug (that looks remarkably like a
petrol pump) and a control/charging box you install in your home. But
ultimately I think that people will want to plug their EV into a
standard mains connection as well. A potential big market for
"conversions" or some form of kit that allows standard power point
connection?

My friend who built her own electric car installed a standard mains
plug inside the existing fuel cap and had an extension cord in the
boot. Neat.

BTW, for those that haven't seen it, the movie "Who killed the
electric car" is well worth a watch.

Dave.

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Apart from the fact it's a load of garbage.

Graham


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But where is the "clean, safe, affordable" electricity going to come from?
Not to mention "clean, safe, affordable" batteries!

MrT.



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Dooonnn't worry - there's this clean coal thats being mined.....



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There is already some existing renewable capacity on the grid, but not
enough for a mass change overnight change of course.
But as the demand for renewable energy increases, more plants will be
built, and options increase as technology improves.
For instance, they had to build new wind farms to power the new Sydney
desalination plant, as there wasn't enough existing renewable capacity
available.
I'm buying 100% renewable energy to spur on the progress, aren't you?

The goal for NZ is to be using 90% renewable energy by 2025. Australia
will be only 20% by 2020, but at least it's a start.

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Different ball game there.

Dave.

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Nearly 30 years ago I worked near a guy that was developing
a salt water battery system.  The idea was it would either
recharge as a conventional battery does or you could go to a
normal service station where the electrolyte could be
drained and then refilled as with a conventional petrol
pump.  The idea was to have a solenoid operated drain cock
on the battery and the servo would have grids and a drain
system that then returned the electrolyte to a main tank for
a slow recharge via solar panels or conventional mains.  It
solved several problems.

I believe the idea was from Israel (lots of sun and salt
there to) but I never heard any more about it.  Conspiracy
theory says a major oil company bought the patent and
shelved it ;-)

This type of idea that can use renewable energy, utilise
existing infrastructure and have a safe, environmentally
friendly battery system would be a real hit.  BTW if any one
knows the guy I wouldn't mind a follow up. It was Frank
Parry, the brother of Parry's, the department store in WA.

Cheers TT



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Intuitively you'd think one of the plates would be eroded & consumed if the
electrolyte was renewed rather than the battery recharged. Then again
perhaps plate changes were part of the design / maintenance.


Maybe Robert Parry & it became ---> www.zbbenergy.com  ?


Where I  found:

"Unlike the lead acid and most other batteries, the ZESS uses electrodes
that cannot and do not take part in the reactions but merely serve as
substrates for the reactions. There is therefore no loss of performance,
unlike most rechargeable batteries, from repeated cycling causing electrode
material deterioration. During the charge cycle metallic zinc is plated from
the electrolyte solution onto the negative electrode surfaces in the cell
stacks.  Bromide is then converted to Bromine at the positive electrode
surface of the cell stack and is immediately stored as a safe chemically
complexed organic phase in the electrolyte tank.  When the ZESS discharges,
the metallic zinc plated on the negative electrode dissolves in the
electrolyte and is available to be plated again at the next charge cycle.
In the fully discharged state the ZESS can be left indefinitely."




What happened to the wave power test system that was to be planted on the
ocean floor off Fremantle a  few years back?

For a supposed "green" community Fremantle is a very odd place, I believe
one of the main reasons wind turbines on the North Mole (harbour sea wall)
were knocked back was that they would be "unsightly".



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ah - you are correct - there is a Frank Parry too.



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Still going:
http://www.ceto.com.au/home.php

and
http://www.theage.com.au/national/new-wave-of-power-in-renewable-energy-market-20081004-4tyd.html

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I was in Denham in WA a few months back and had a look at the wind
farm that supplies half of the towns power.
They look majestic sitting up there on the hill, and the towns folk
love them, they want more installed.

Flying into Germany a few years back now, it was wind farms out the
window as far as the eye could see.

Very eerie standing under them when they are rotating though!

Dave.

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Mmm, sounds like the Salt water 'battery" that was apparently around
during WWII, but that consumed magnesium plates. The electrolyte was just
"sea water". He may have had an idea that it could be reversed.


" The idea was to have a solenoid operated drain cock on the
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Is there any currently opperating system that actually works
like this now? People keep claiming it can be done with lead-acid
technology, but I suspect they are mistaken.



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Oh there are many battery Yechnologies but none ever quite seem to fit the
bill. I expect Li-ion to be seen most widely in the upcoming generation of
hynrids.

This was touted at one time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-sulfur_battery

Unforunately it has to be kept at high temperature. Might for be suitable say
for buses that have long daily usage cycles.

Graham



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Solar recharging from panels on a vehicle even in ideal circumstances might
daily get you to the end of the road.

Do the numbers !

Graham


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For solarpanels to be a real option, you would needto park the car in full
snlight everyday and only be doing a short trip. You would also need a
top up ICE driven battery charger in the boot. Might be feasible with the
roof space of my LWB courier van, but anything else, doubt it.



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And then look at the cost of the panels ! Never mind the danger of accidental
or vandalism damage to them.

Nanosolar has been making great claims about their reduced costs, possibly
1/5th of current silicon panels if they're telling the truth but have put no
info of value in the public domain, nor do we know if the technology is
reliable or long lived, but are they going to sell them at that price when
investors want returns ?

Graham



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from?
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Exactly. We need to meet current demand with 100% clean, renewable energy
before we can increase demand that much. Otherwise we are simply burning
coal instead of petrol. Then adding battery problems to boot!

MrT.




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**Not quite. Internal combustion engines are spectacularly inefficient,
whilst thermal power stations are respectably efficient. Worse, IC engines
are arguably the worst type of motor for stop-start city use. Electric
motors are vastly more suited to such a task. A significantly smaller motor
can be used. The Prius electric motor, for instance, though only developing
50kW, delivers around 400Nm of torque. That is the kind of planet-turning
toque only achieved by V8 engines and highly tuned turbo 4 cylinder engines.
It provides the Prius with quite respectable off-the-line performance, with
minimal fuel use.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



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